Navigating Sexual Communication with Tallulah Sulis
In this episode of The Better Sex Podcast, I chat with Sex Educator, Somatic Sex Therapist and Female Ejaculation Expert, Tallulah Sulis about empowering female sexuality, fostering better communication, and enhancing intimacy in relationships. As we talk, Tallulah shares a bit of her journey into somatic coaching as she learned the deep importance of nervous system regulation and discovered the concept of core erotic desires to deepen connection. Along the way, we chat about the value of slow seduction, the dynamics of initiating and responding partners, and how open, reciprocal communication can transform sexual experiences. This episode is absolutely packed with practical tools like "special attention dates" and "erotic mapping," giving you some very actionable steps to reduce pressure, explore desires, and cultivate a more fulfilling intimate life.
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In our commitment accessibility, help make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who like to read rather than listen to podcasts. The transcription is far from perfect, and in some cases quite amusing. As we grow edited transcripts are on the list in the meantime please enjoy.
Okay. Beautiful. All right. Welcome to the Better Sex Podcast. My name is Deborah Cat and I am your shameless host. This is the Better Sex podcast where we have unfiltered conversations about sex and relationships.
Deborah [00:01:33]:
These conversations are frank and explicit and may not be appropriate for all audiences. So please listen with care. I truly believe that a sexy world creates a happier and a safer world. If you want to do your part to create a safe and sexy world, please hit like, subscribe, subscribe and leave a comment wherever you get your podcasts. Today we are going to dive into the world of my guest, Tallulah Cese. She is a renowned sex educator somatic sex therapist based in Newport Beach. She works privately with clients and facilitates workshops and speaking engagements around the country. She's appeared on shows such as Sex Life on Epic, Tim Ferriss, New York Times bestseller, the four Hour Body, Playboy TV and Pen and Teller, along with countless podcasts.
Deborah [00:02:36]:
I'm really excited to have her on the show today. She and I have been in the same world for many years and it's such a pleasure to get to connect and see you again. And I'd love to just invite you to say hello and tell us a little bit about how did you get here?
Tallulah Sulis [00:02:58]:
Oh, well, thank you for the lovely introduction. It's a pleasure to be here. And you were asking how I got here, Right. So I'd love to just. You know, my story goes back about 20 plus years ago when I lived in the Bay Area. And what started out, it started out as this amazing experience where I had just dropped in from New York and I immediately felt like I was amongst my people and there was such a progressive minded thinking in San Francisco that kind of blew me away. And I ended up starting a relationship. And in that relationship, he said something along the lines of, you know, I think you can ejaculate.
Tallulah Sulis [00:03:42]:
And then I was able to ejaculate. He helped facilitate that experience for me. And so it does all start with me ejaculating for the first time my whole entire career, which is funny to think about, but it's kind of a fascinating journey that it's been. And he said to me, you know what? You are way more excited about this than other women that I have helped facilitate this with. Maybe you should do something about that. Maybe this is a sign you should explore this more and maybe teach workshops or be a sex educator. And I was like, I think you're onto something. Because the part of that was excitement about ejaculating, but then there was this almost like this internal outrage where it was outrage at the fact that why didn't I know more about this? Why was this some weird parlor trick that seemed very nebulous and something that.
Tallulah Sulis [00:04:38]:
Why, why don't more people know about this? Why is this shrouded in mystery? So I set out on a crusade, sort of as a sex educator, but also as an activist to help spread the word about sexuality in general and empowerment for women and for everyone. And that set off a whole crusade where I started making a film, an educational film about female ejaculation. It took me three years to make. And in that process, I started teaching workshops. Well, they were actually called squirt shops. And that was just delightful. It was so amazing. And then I toured around, premiered my film, started getting involved in sex therapy and taking all these workshops and trainings to learn how to become a somatic sex therapist simultaneously.
Tallulah Sulis [00:05:30]:
And then, you know, very, very, very long story short, 20 years later, I have my own private practice in Newport beach in Orange county, and, you know, host play parties and do podcasts and speaking engagements, and I love it and teach workshops, too.
Deborah [00:05:48]:
Well, congratulations for finding your. Your calling, if you will. I'm curious. So, I mean, I've heard the word somatic sex therapy, and I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit about, like, what that is and, you know, who it might be a good fit for.
Tallulah Sulis [00:06:08]:
Well, I, you know, somatic sex therapy is a very unique genre of, of a career and therapy. And basically what I do is I incorporate basically four different modalities of somatic therapy. So I'm a certified Hakomi therapist. And that is just. That is somatic therapy. And somatic means the body. So it's a body oriented therapy. And that's more of an emotional base working with deeper emotions, core wounds.
Tallulah Sulis [00:06:43]:
And I also incorporate the somatica method. So I'm also Certified as a somatica practitioner and that is somatic sex therapy. And with that kind of therapy, clothing stays on and there's no direct genital touching with that type of therapy. But I am working interactively and doing interactive experiences with my clients that help them become more embodied, more connected to their energy in their body, their sexual energy, overcoming anxiety, performance anxiety, things like that, and really tap into themselves on a deeper level. And then I also am a certified sexological body worker, which is another modality of sexual therapy. And that modality is like one way touch from me to you and you're on a massage table. And it includes mindfulness, breath work, full body touch, working directly with sexual energy and having this full bodied experience and a deeper awareness and exploration. And sometimes we're working very specific issues in that exploration.
Tallulah Sulis [00:07:51]:
Sometimes there is no genital touching whatsoever and sometimes it's working with boundaries or areas of the body that are holding some trauma or some stuck energy, helping them to become less inhibited in their bodies in general. So it's a very useful practice. And so I incorporate all of those modalities, plus I have a background studying tantra as well. And so there's. It's a combination of coaching and these different somatic modalities which are extremely useful. I feel like for anyone and everyone, especially those who have some kind of issues that they would like to improve upon, things they would like to explore, things they would like to overcome, help with their partner. This is really great for couples too because we're doing hands on work in the session where couples are actually interacting with one another to be able to navigate and create new neural pathways to new pleasure and experiences and experience exploration. And I sort of act as the guide and sometimes I'll demonstrate certain things or help them learn about conscious touch or ways that they can bridge their differing sexual desires or ways that they can initiate sex with a partner, any kind of sexual exchange in a way that is helpful to the other partner, that really entices them to want to be sexual, etc.
Tallulah Sulis [00:09:19]:
So there are so many varied things that I work with and it's really fascinating and a beautiful journey and just even deep self exploration as well. So I really highly recommend this to people. Most people don't even know this is an option for them.
Deborah [00:09:34]:
Right. So I'm curious in your practice with couples, like what are some of the things that you see or what are some of the things that people come to you about as a couple?
Tallulah Sulis [00:09:51]:
So as a couple I will get a lot of couples that have differing sexual Styles and interests and things and they, they're having issues getting on the same page and they've created these negative feedback loops where it's turned into criticism or rejection and, or a partner not getting it right for the other and then getting caught in their head or even just being avoidant of sex altogether because there have been some issues. So the feedback loop is very important when it comes to couples. And when I'm talking about feedback loops, I mean, let's say I'm really excited about what's happening sexually and my excitement turns into you feeling excited for me and excited for yourself because you're feeling confident. You're your. My pleasure is your pleasure. Your pleasure is my pleasure. That's one of those beautiful feedback loops where we're just so all in with it and we have this open communication and it's positive versus a feedback loop that unfortunately a lot of us fall into. And especially in long term couples or couples that don't really communicate very much about sex or about their interest in sex and their desires is what we get is these negative feedback loops that like for example, if, let's say she is feeling like her partner is not, you know, not very good at giving her oral sex, she just knows that something is not quite feeling right and, but doesn't necessarily know how to guide them.
Tallulah Sulis [00:11:34]:
It's just not right. Her exasperation and then sometimes criticism gets then taken into the partner and that partner then starts to get into their head about what is going on and the, then what ends up happening is they from being in their head are actually not very present at all. And they're, you know, their ability to pleasure their partner become, it goes, gets even lower because they're of that disconnect and the lack of confidence and then it just becomes an avoidant structure where that person is like, I don't even want to try because I know I'm going to get criticized. I know this isn't going to work. I know she's not happy with what I do, so I'm not even going to bother or I'm just going to skip foreplay altogether and we're going to go right for penetration, right? So that's where I come in and I'm like, all right, let's work with ways that we can have positive feedback for our partners. Ways to share in an excited positive way that's productive, that doesn't put down our partner, right. That really helps lift them up and encourage them and let's help really do some erotic mapping journey so we can see exactly what you like in a very detailed way. So one of the things I love doing with couples is erotic mapping work.
Tallulah Sulis [00:12:56]:
And each person in the couple will take a turn, receive, receiving erotic mapping work. And what this is, this is profound because this allows, for example, let's say the, the female, she's experiencing an erotic mapping journey. I'm there with her partner and we're in a very detailed way. I'm showing her partner how to give her conscious touch, how to, you know, do full body massage, how to get her nervous system nice and relaxed first, right? How to touch in a way that is very pleasurable, in a very detailed way. Like, does she like soft, light, tingly touch? What parts of her body feel very aroused by touch? So it's a full body approach, right. We're not just working with genitals and a lot of people get very genital oriented, right. And I really try to bring in a full body approach. And all these doors open up once you include the full body, right.
Tallulah Sulis [00:13:59]:
In arousal, in the arousal process, as well as just the experience of connection with your partner too, and sending blissful, amazing energy into the full body that relaxes people's nervous system. So I work a lot with tending to nervous systems because it's a very potent part of how we can get more aroused, how we can feel more present, how we can stay, stay connected in inner bodies to receive pleasure. So in the erotic mapping journeys, we go into great detail, including the genitals as well. For example, does the clitoris like to be touched up and down? Let's try that. Let's try an up and down. How does that feel? How is that pressure? Does that feel good? Okay, let's try back and forth, right? Let's include the G spot. Let's explore the G spot. What does it feel like when the clitoris and the G spot are being stimulated at the same time? And then I'm showing certain things and guiding the partner, and the partner is able to try them.
Tallulah Sulis [00:15:00]:
And we're getting that continuous feedback that's very potent. So I'm like, I want you to know the ins, the outs, this full body mapping to get a greater understanding. And we're giving the person receiving all this permission to really openly share maybe for the very first time, usually for the very first time, what they truly like, what feels good, what kind of pressure, exactly. What is the right places on their body that really are very activating in a positive way for them. Right. So this is something that I'll work with couples, the erotic Mapping journeys are, are potent, right?
Deborah [00:15:39]:
That sounds amazing.
Tallulah Sulis [00:15:41]:
Yes. And some couples are wanting to experiment with non monogamy. So I really help guide them through non monogamy and how to do that in a way that is just very mindful of all the factors in that experience. Helping people understand what their agreements are, what their boundaries are, what their feelings are, what their intentions are around it, and then having these very open conversations and really understanding what helps them feel safe in a non monogamous situation, what they really hope to get out of it. Are they on the same page with it? Yeah.
Deborah [00:16:16]:
Thank you. So I want to jump back just a moment because you mentioned nervous system regulation and I just want to be sure that people listening know what you're talking about when you, when you talk about what is nervous system regulation and, and why is it so important in couples and in sex in general?
Tallulah Sulis [00:16:40]:
Oh wow. I love talking about a nervous system regulation. So I'm so glad we circled back to that. As I've been working for the last 20 years with people somatically, one of the things that I've noticed that is extremely important is the nervous system as a huge component that is a make or break often in terms of working with sexual energy. So for example, let me just trace back to childhood when in our generation, at least in my generation and previous generations and even currently into this, this current generation, we were not really taught or we were not taught how to regulate our nervous systems. So if we knew and we were under, unable to understand at a young age how to regulate our nervous systems and what I mean by that is, ooh, I'm feeling so some energy in my chest right now, or I'm feeling a little bit anxious, right? Or I'm feeling like I'm kind of spinning out a little bit or I'm really angry right now, right? I feel a lot of anger or energy welling up my body or my heart is racing right now. If we were taught how to be able to drop in and slow down our nervous system and some of those ways to regulate our nervous systems or self regulate them is deep breathing into the belly, being able to ground your energy, like really feeling your seat, squeezing your pelvic floor muscles, tapping with your fingers, like your thumb to each finger, pressing hard against that. Anything that drops you into your body helps to regulate your nervous system.
Tallulah Sulis [00:18:28]:
For everyone has different things specifically that help them regulate their nervous system. Sometimes it's movement, sometimes it's squeezing or snapping a rubber band on your wrist, Sometimes it's a sequence. And I Teach clients how to have a sequence of anchors, as I call them. Anchors are anything that anchor you out of your head and into your body. Also, another way to regulate the nervous system is to slow down, down. So whatever you're doing, you're trying to just slow down those movements, slowing down, because that slowing down process literally slows down the activation of your nervous system. So once you create a sequence of anchors that help you regulate your nervous system. And the breath is a huge one.
Tallulah Sulis [00:19:19]:
Right. But everyone has different things that are very helpful for them. So I teach people how to regulate their nervous systems. And once they are able to get out of their heads and into their body, it acts as a way to calm their nervous system, but also get them into their body, which is extremely important when it comes to being sexual. So if we're in our heads, it's very hard to experience and feel pleasure when we have an embodied experience where we're relaxed and embodied. It's like a magnifying glass for pleasure, arousal and movement of sexual energy. For example, oftentimes in cases of rapid ejaculation or premature ejaculation, which I work with a lot of people around that, or even delayed, delayed orgasm. Right.
Tallulah Sulis [00:20:13]:
Oftentimes there's anxiety in the body, and when they're feeling anxious and their body is not relaxed, that can cause rapid ejaculation or premature ejaculation. Right. So when we're more relaxed and embodied, we have much more mastery and control. And especially for vulva owners, it allows us to feel and really tune into pleasure in a deep way when our nervous system is relaxed. So if we're anxious or where our nervous systems are not regulated, we're often stuck in our heads, disconnected, disconnected from ourselves and our partner. And the energy in our body is stuck. And we're often holding our breaths, we're often tense. So that tension in the body, holding of our breath, the tendency to be in thoughts and whirling thoughts at a rapid rate is just the.
Tallulah Sulis [00:21:12]:
It just kills sexual energy. And it, it inhibits arousal and it inhibits a deeper level of orgasmic experience in the body. And sensitivity also inhibits our ability to be able to guide things in a direction to follow pleasure. Right. Sometimes it leaves us feeling stuck, awkward, performative. All these things can arise when we're feeling anxious and in our heads and not. And disembodied. Right.
Tallulah Sulis [00:21:41]:
So they go really well together. When your nervous system is regulated, you're able to be in your body.
Deborah [00:21:48]:
Thank you for that great explanation and suggestions on, on how to how to work with the nervous system. I'm curious. As you were talking, one of the things that sort of came up for me is I'm. One of the things I've been seeing in my practice quite a bit with couples is that, you know, typically, typically the, the, the men who are sort of expected still to make the first move because they've been shut down so much, they're having a hard time finding their own turn on. And as you were talking, I was thinking, oh, right, you know, bringing that, you know, they're not finding it because they're up in their head. So bringing it down into the body would be a first step to, to really finding their arousal again. And I'm wondering if you could elaborate on that or, or pick that up at all and what your thoughts might be.
Tallulah Sulis [00:22:49]:
Oh, yes, I love, I love that because particularly there can be a lot of like men who are. Get so focused on their partner's pleasure or pleasing them or they're just in their head so much or having performance anxiety that yeah, there is not a dropping into the body nor just even overall concept of really diving into their pleasure and what they desire. So when I work with, when I work with men and, and women too, and people of all genders, I really help people try to discover what their core erotic desires are. Right. And really get selfish in a very good, positive way. I'm saying selfish with air quotes because selfish meaning really embodying your, your pleasure, but also feeling into and, and feeling into what your core erotic desires are. And what core erotic desires are are the things that really heighten your arousal, your turn on. And the way to discover those things is to think back to your peak erotic sexual experiences, the ones that are standout experiences in your mind.
Tallulah Sulis [00:24:10]:
We were like, that was amazing sexual experience, right? And what were the factors at play? Was it passionate? Did you feel so in love and connected with your partner? Was it naughty? Was it risky? Was it kinky? Did you try something new? Or was it something. Yeah, like where there was a deep connection or was it like a transcendent experience? Right. So we all have these things emotionally that inspire us to even want to be sexual. And if we don't know what our core erotic desires are and we don't know what our partner's core erotic desires are, then sometimes it's really hard. It's like knowing your partner's love language. Right? So it's really important to know what is going to be very exciting for them, you know, and even if you have different core Erotic desires, you can absolutely bridge those together. Right. For some people, their core erotic desire is to feel desired.
Tallulah Sulis [00:25:08]:
Like I want to feel so desired by my partner and the best sex I've had has been feeling so desired by them. Whereas another person might be like, oh my gosh, it was feeling so connected. So connection is a core radar. So it's the emotion that you want to experience while you're being sexual. Right. So part of really tapping into yourself as a sexual sovereign being and sharing that with someone else too is this excitement and like first of all, knowing what you desire, knowing what's very arousing for you, and knowing what feels really good for yourself because you've done a lot of self exploration and also maybe with others as well and being able to sort of like we, we talk, we, we say touch for your pleasure too. So if I'm touching you, I'm touching for my pleasure. I'm doing what feels good for me while I'm touching you.
Tallulah Sulis [00:26:02]:
That's going to feel really good to you versus touching in this tentative way. Like, hope you're gonna like it, maybe will. Do you like this? Do you like that? Versus just being there and being super present. Right. So when you're touching for your own pleasure or where you're being sexual, with your own pleasure at the forefront too, and following that, your partner will feel that, experience that, that will give them pleasure as well and they will feel a lot more connected to you and excited about your pleasure as well. Right. So there's a reciprocity that's always going to be happening there. Of course, it's not just only being out for yourself, but if we can really embrace our own pleasure and we're just focused on pleasuring our partner or we're so in our head that we can't even identify what is even feeling good to us in the moment.
Tallulah Sulis [00:26:52]:
And we're literally just going through the motions and having performative sex, which a lot of people are there. It's almost like they're imitating someone having sex while they're being sexual. Right. Rather than being fully in it, being very present and feeling that connection and following their pleasure and connecting in with their partner's pleasure as well.
Deborah [00:27:14]:
Oh, good. You know, hearing you say that, I was thinking about a, a client that I was working with fairly recently where it was interesting because it was a couple and her complaint was that he was incredibly selfish and what the, you know, as we unwound everything and unfolded everything, it was, it was two parts. It was that, you know, there Was that performative thing of this is what sex looks like. You know, we've done the 30 seconds of foreplay, we've kissed, we've done this. Now it's, now it's, you know, penetration and ejaculation. And it was, you know, he was so in his head that it wasn't even as pleasurable for him as, as, you know, it could be. But like, you know, it was such a disconnected experience for both of them because, you know, he was in his head and then she got in her head because of course know she's, you know, there is the disconnect. And so, you know, really being able to drop into the body is such an important starting place for, for sexuality in general.
Deborah [00:28:27]:
And I love that you were talking about, you know, you've got your, your personal pleasure and your selfish pleasure and how that actually is helpful to the experience with your partner. Because as you said, if you're not touching own pleasure, you know, and you're just focused on sort of, you know, where do I touch and how do I touch and you know, I, it, it just doesn't quite work as well as one thinks it will. You know, one of the interesting things for me is when I have male clients come in and they're like, I'm such a pleaser and then we sort of unpack that and it's like, well, you've got a big agenda, you know, and, and this sort of brings me back to female ejaculation.
Tallulah Sulis [00:29:18]:
Yay.
Deborah [00:29:20]:
You know, I think oftentimes it becomes a destination and not a journey and it becomes a, you know, I love the way that you talked about your earlier partner supporting you and facilitating. Right. You know, versus like making her squirt or making her come or making her do anything. And I'm wondering, I'm wondering about your thoughts.
Tallulah Sulis [00:29:54]:
Oh yeah, I, and I very intentionally use the help facilitate or facilitating because yeah, the I made her squirt or I can make women squirt kind of thing or having that be an objective like, right, I'm going to, I'm going to do this to you or give this experience to you and versus like facilitating that or helping to facilitate that. It really kind of is a co led experience. Right. And also like you said, if there's it, it becomes a goal oriented thing for, for many people. Right. For penis owners and vulva owners. Right. Where they're like, oh, there's this pressure to, to do it, to even be a squirter.
Tallulah Sulis [00:30:40]:
Right. And I would always tell people when I was teaching that the goal of this workshop or squirt shop is not for the goal isn't for you to squirt or ejaculate as the the result. The goal is to do exploration with yourself and also invite you to do that with your partners too. That feels really good for you. And where you feel less inhibited, where you're exploring your G spot, you're following what feels really good and pleasurable. And I'm just wanting to bring simply the awareness that it's possible and show the different factors that can help, you know, facilitate that experience. But with that said, I don't think everyone needs to be or should be or that it's an experience that should be considered a goal. It really is just something that I really feel like it's important to just be informed about and to know more about it.
Tallulah Sulis [00:31:35]:
And, and that can be a very empowering experience just to like have the information, understand where it comes from, what it's about, what are the things that feel really good about it. Right. Or the things leading up to that that also can be really great to work with. For example, a lot of, you know, clients that I work with, they've never explored their G spot. They don't know exactly where it is. Their partners don't know about the G spot. They don't know the right, not the right. But they don't know different ways to explore it that can be even more pleasurable or if they're self pleasuring, the right kind of toys that can be really helpful for that process.
Tallulah Sulis [00:32:19]:
So I really love just having this feeling of like we're going to release all goals and expectations. Right. And just follow and be present, follow the pleasure and be present with it and really like that's, that's the whole. If there is a goal, that's the goal. It's just to follow pleasure and to be present and embodied and to know that there, this does not equal you being in a higher level of your sexual prowess or anything or you know, your sexual evolution. That it really is all about getting informed and learning, learning about it and to just understand it on a deeper level. And then you can have the choice if you want to explore it or not or if it's something that happens or doesn't happen. As long as you are feeling very happy and like you've explored and you're joyful in your sexual experience.
Tallulah Sulis [00:33:05]:
Great. That's the important part here.
Deborah [00:33:09]:
Beautiful. I love, you know, just taking the goal away from sexuality in general and.
Tallulah Sulis [00:33:16]:
Yes, yes.
Deborah [00:33:18]:
You know, one of the things That I often see with my clients is it's like they're so focused on, on, you know, what successful sex is for them. And usually it's, you know, two people coming together, you know, a few minutes before play, a little bit of, you know, penetration and then ejaculation. And that's like, oh, we've been successful. And I, I hear that on both ends. Like, I hear, you know, women vulva owners are often like, oh, you didn't come, there's something wrong. And then on, on the penis owner, masculine side of things, there's often the like, well, I, I didn't ejaculate or I, I came too soon. Or I. And I'm, I'm wondering if you could speak to that a little bit.
Tallulah Sulis [00:34:10]:
Yes, these goals are extremely, extremely non productive as far as enjoying and being aroused. Because here's the deal is that these goals create pressure, the pressure to orgasm. If you're a vulva owner and let's say someone's stimulating you and you can feel the goal like this, the goal is that I'm supposed to have an orgasm, that pressure will turn into a mind loop that takes you out of the present moment. And we've all been there as vulva owners where we're like, oh my gosh, am I taking too long? Is this person's mouth getting tired? Is their arm getting tired? Are they getting bored? Am I taking too long? And then, you know, like, and then you also are trying to force that orgasm and forcing of an orgasm. You can still have a great orgasm when it's forced, but we really want to allow orgasmic energy to flow through us rather than forcing it. Right. Pressure is a huge inhibitor for arousal and embodiment. And so these goals are implicit in our societal dynamic or and idea of what sex is.
Tallulah Sulis [00:35:31]:
Right. Just like how you described. It's full of goals, right? Like what you just described. And when you release all of those goals and just allow things to be very in the moment and be present, this whole creative world opens up. And especially when you incorporate the full body. If we're just focusing on genitals and genital pleasure and orgasm and penetration, these are all these goals that our society kind of creates this understanding of what sex is. So I really help try to blow people's minds open about what quote unquote, sex can look like, feel like, be like. Right? And that it doesn't necessarily gasp, have to include either partner having an orgasm.
Tallulah Sulis [00:36:19]:
It doesn't necessarily have to include gasp, penetration or penetrative sex. Right. It doesn't have to include any of those things to have an amazing, incredible sexual experience. Experience. It can involve energetic orgasms. It could be more energetic. It can be more cuddly. It can be more making out.
Tallulah Sulis [00:36:38]:
It can be more like playing with toys or a power dynamic or a role play. All these things. If more people understood how. How they could really be creative and follow the present moment, and if we release all those goals, what we could allow to unfold, that is so potent and magical. And we wonder why people get so bored in their sexual relationships, right? Like, they. They get into the routine, then we get bored, and then we just some. And then we get avoidant, right? And then it creates these feedback loops where I'm doing my wifely duty, right? You know, I'm just doing this or doing that, or he's doing his duty, right? Just, you know, I got to give her an orgasm, then I have my orgasm, and this is what happens. And that happens.
Tallulah Sulis [00:37:25]:
And there's a program, and that program equals pressure as well sometimes too, which can absolutely, you know, just completely create obstacles to really just being in this beautiful flow. Like, what if it was like, hey, why don't we, you know, cuddle naked and just see where that goes? Right? What if the. Instead of an invitation for sex, for example, it was an invitation for naked cuddling? Right?
Deborah [00:37:53]:
That's my favorite assignments to my clients.
Tallulah Sulis [00:37:57]:
Yeah.
Deborah [00:37:57]:
They could cuddly naked couple of naked kettle time.
Tallulah Sulis [00:38:02]:
Yes. It, like, that is an amazing thing. And it creates all this oxytocin and just yummy love chemicals and energy and arousal in the body. So if, for example, this backs way up, even to initiating quote unquote sex. So, for example, someone who has a more responsive desire pattern where they're not immediately ready and available and horny, and if you approach that person and say, hey, you want to have sex tonight? And they're not even remotely in that mode yet, right? They're not even remotely aroused. They might be like, no, just no, Not. Not today. Not into it.
Tallulah Sulis [00:38:40]:
Whatever. I'm busy. I got a lot going on. Versus an invitation to naked cuddle without any goal on the other side of like, okay, cool, let's just like, let's. What? What if we. Would you be able to naked cuddling with me tonight? Sure. Yeah. That sounds really nice, right? And then that can lead there or even not, right? Or if your partner even says, hey, this is not necessarily having to lead to anything.
Tallulah Sulis [00:39:02]:
I just want to naked cuddle with you and be close, and we'll just be in the moment with it. Right. And so that is more exciting. Right. Versus often partners will completely turn away from all affection because they feel like their partner is going to pressure them to have sex. Even if it's just for like a hug or a kiss. You're going to be like, oh, my partner wants sex out of this. Right.
Tallulah Sulis [00:39:26]:
Versus these invitations that have no goals connected to them. They're just like intimacy for the sake of intimacy. Right.
Deborah [00:39:33]:
I'm so glad. There's two things I want to go back to because I'm so glad you brought them up. But one of them is this idea of, you know, oftentimes the, the initiator wanting everything, you know, wanting it to, to lead to the goal of sex versus the initiator might just want to hug or might just want to cut a kiss and. Or if they do want things to lead to sex, that they might actually be more than satisfied if it doesn't go all the way there. You know, one of. I feel like that's one of the things that couples really run into is that push, pull on. On the initiation piece and then I want to go back to the responsive turn on. I'm not exactly sure if that's what you called it, but.
Tallulah Sulis [00:40:25]:
Responsive desire.
Deborah [00:40:26]:
Yeah, responsive desire. And if you could unpack that just a little bit, what that is and what the difference between, I mean, you would think that non responsive is the other one, but that's, that's not actually accurate, is it?
Tallulah Sulis [00:40:42]:
Well, it's. Yeah, it would. A responsive desire is. You know, oftentimes someone who has responsive desire means that like, yeah, their sex is not, they're not leading with the desire to be sexual. This is kind of a little bit tricky to explain. They. They their turn on and their arousal comes through an experience of their partner engaging with their partner. And then there is more excitement around sex versus the person who is sort of.
Tallulah Sulis [00:41:19]:
And you know, oftentimes people will equate the penis owners to be more of the ones that are the initiate the initiator desire, where it's just they're feeling aroused and turned on right away. Their arousal is right there for them and they are wanting to be sexual based upon that desire that's right there and immediate for them. So when that person asks a responsive desire, do you want to have sex with me? And they're all ready to go, the responsive desire person often is a no. But once you understand if your partner is one of those more responsive desire people, then you just understand that the initiation process will look a little bit different. It won't look as simple as do you want to have sex? And they're like, yeah, let's bring it on. It might look more like, oh, this, my partner has more of a responsive desire. They're so initiating would look a little bit more like what are these other smaller invitations, you know, like, or being like, hey, can I give you a nice like full body massage, right. Would you enjoy that? Or do you want to be cuddling tonight? Right? Or do you want to, you know, whatever the case might be, or do you want to just make out with me? Or whatever these invitations are? And then trusting and knowing that that person's desire and arousal will come online as they're, they're getting into things, right? And they're responding more to the closeness, the energy, the touch, whatever those things are that are connected that person's core erotic desires and, or just response, erotic response experience, right? So that, you know, understanding that and understand that we can be at different places.
Tallulah Sulis [00:43:05]:
And oftentimes a no is you don't always want to go right for the sex question. And responsive desire works better when that's not necessarily the explicit thing that's being shared. It doesn't mean being manipulative, right. It just means being able to be open and not attached to any kind of outcome or goal. Right. And to be able to go with the flow knowing that like, yeah, I know that like when my partner, when we get close and we start being physical, we start doing full body touch with each other, things start heating up, you know, But I know right away this person is not going to be all like ready to slam me against the wall or jump my bones, right? And that's okay, you, we all have different desire, desire patterns and responses to it, right.
Deborah [00:43:52]:
And I, I mean, being someone who's probably more on the immediate, like I have the thought that like, oh, you know, I mean, for one thing it's interesting being, you know, being female and female bodied and, and having that response because as you said, that's not always associated with it. But also learning how to seduce my partner, you know, and learning how to really slow down enough to actually enjoy each part of the seduction. Like, you know, there's the part of me that's, you know, ready to go and then there's the part of me that's like super turned on by like, oh, but I, but I have to slow down and you know, because then I get to feel, feel more in my body and it's, it's been a really fascinating journey to, to actually understand My own responsiveness and my own turn on and my own pleasure. And as you said earlier, you know how much more can be felt when we slow down and when I'm in my body and really like, oh, well, what happens if I do this?
Tallulah Sulis [00:45:09]:
Yes, absolutely. The slowing down. If I, if I had like a nickel for every time I have told a client to, you know, slow down. Right. That is one of the number one, number one secrets to all of it is the slowing down. Right. Whether I'm telling them to slow down with their touch, whether I'm telling them to slow down with anything about building arousal. And it's not that you're moving slow the entire time, Right.
Tallulah Sulis [00:45:39]:
Oftentimes in the initiation, the slowing down is very important because that's the thing that helps people kind of like feel all relaxy and tingly and their nervous systems come online. So for example, if you were to do something like you were saying, like the seduction thing, when you're all hot in the biscuit and ready to go and you're like, oh, but my partner is not maybe there yet, right. Then how, yeah, you have to kind of really mindfully slow down a bit and kind of do this thing where you're like enticing them in a way that's very loving and sweet. Sometimes grabbing someone intensely can be really exciting and a turn on. But oftentimes if your partner might not be there yet, the moving very slowly and doing things touch wise. Like even if it's just like a hand on their thigh and just kind of slowly moving it just very mindfully and slowly up their thigh while making eye contact with them or saying something seductive, right? Or saying a compliment or, you know, or just like, oh, you feel really good or do you would. Does this feel good for you? Right. And sometimes just moving into that place, then the person is like, ooh.
Tallulah Sulis [00:46:58]:
And they, it allows them to kind of slowly get more into their body to feel the pleasure of even something very subtle that you're doing. Not an overt grab. You know, a lot of people just overtly like, let's just grab the genitals and hope for the best that this is going to excite my partner. But oftentimes it actually creates a shrieking back kind of feeling rather than enticing them to come to you. Right? So it's almost like this nice soft, you know, seductive energy that helps them relax their nervous system to feel this nice, sensual, yummy energy to get the oxytocin flowing, to feel like, ooh, this is feeling really pleasurable. Right now, I want more. And so oftentimes, less is more in the beginning, right? Slowing down and very, very, very light touch, especially because oftentimes especially with the vulva itself, the vulva really likes to come alive when the initial first touches are very slow, tantalizing, like, really slow and very gentle. Right.
Tallulah Sulis [00:48:07]:
Almost like teasing. Kind of like, oh, I'm kind of there, but I'm kind of not. Right. That anticipation builds. The arousal versus what a lot of people do is they'll go in, you know, fast and heavy and intense, like, oh, I'm gonna pack a punch with this one, or I'm gonna go down and hurt, right? And it just. They're like. And then it's like, whoa, whoa, whoa. Right? Is the feeling.
Tallulah Sulis [00:48:29]:
And then we're spending a lot of the time receiving just trying to actually stop feeling, like, discomfort, right? Because sometimes people don't speak up about that. So the slow moving, slow going in, very teasing, lovingly, intentionally or seductively. Right? Or even in a dominant kind of way, that's. That can be really enticing, can really help that person kind of build up the anticipation rather than feeling their body is kind of shrinking back because it's too much, too soon. Right.
Deborah [00:49:04]:
And how. How would you suggest, like, do you have any. A tip or anything for someone who might want to be communicating in that moment, but they're in the past, they've said, don't do it that way. That has not gone well. Or, you know, any of the number of reasons why we don't speak up when we would like a different kind of touch?
Tallulah Sulis [00:49:31]:
Yes. You know, the speaking up is something that I'm really working all the time with my clients about, teaching them ways to speak up that are just an understanding of how to do it. Because oftentimes people's perception of it is a feeling like, oh, I'm gonna hurt my partner's feelings. Right. Or they're gonna see that as criticism. Or how do I tell them they're doing something wrong? Is the mentality. Right? Whereas I see it in this way where I say, all right, let's think of these things as adjustments. If you think of speaking up about an adjustment that feels better mentally than speaking about something that's not right or wrong, right? I'm like, there's no rights and wrongs.
Tallulah Sulis [00:50:21]:
There's adjustments, right? So it's easier to ask for an adjustment. Right. In something rather than feeling like, oh, my God, like, how do I tell him he's doing this all wrong? Or she is, right? So I Encourage them. And we practice actually speaking up about adjustments. And actually with their partner, I'll have their partner do something and I'll. And then I'll encourage their partner to say, how is this feeling? How is this pressure? Does this feel good for you? And the partner saying, making adjustments, like, oh, can you go a little higher on my shoulders? Or can you use a little more pressure right there? Oh, that's wonderful. Okay, great. Oh, I love that.
Tallulah Sulis [00:51:03]:
The circles you were doing. Can you do the circles again? Right. So you're in this very dynamic kind of conversation where you're giving permission and both partners are giving permission on both sides. So it's kind of a two way street where we're. If you as a partner are like, have the mentality of, I'm in service to you, I am at your service, and therefore I am happy to make any adjustments you need. And I'm also checking in with you and being like, how does this feel? Is that good? Right? Do you like that? And that also serves as dirty talk too, right? Like when you're talking to your partner and there's an open line of communication to some degree, doesn't mean that you're talking the entire time, but that you. There is some level of reciprocal back and forth conversation that keeps you in the game. It keeps you really present.
Tallulah Sulis [00:51:52]:
Because what happens if you're really quiet? I'm. I'm doing something to you, pleasuring you in some way, and you're pretty quiet. I'm not really hearing you breathe. I'm not hearing you moan. I'm not hearing about any adjustments that need to be made. I start going into my head, right? And I start thinking. I don't know if. I don't know what's going on here.
Tallulah Sulis [00:52:10]:
Does. Do they like it? I don't want to ask. I don't know. Like, and then I'm in my head. And then they're in their head too. Versus how's this feeling? Do you like that? How is that pressure for you? You want me to go a little higher? Awesome. Good. And the person's like, oh, that feels so good.
Tallulah Sulis [00:52:27]:
Yeah, right there. Just keep it right there. Oh my God. Yes, yes, yes, right there. And. And then it kind of. It's encouraging, it's exciting and it creates more arousal. Right? And so it's like kind of working with both partners to give that permission for the adjustments to be made and doing so in a productive way.
Tallulah Sulis [00:52:45]:
Unfortunately, a lot of people are just critical and mean and it's so hard for me to hear These mean things that are actually bringing that person down and wounding them. Right? And oftentimes, I get it, you're frustrated. You're not getting your sexual needs and desires met. You are going to get frustrated at a certain point. Oftentimes we unleash that frustration on our partner and we get mean. Right. Or we'll even say things like, well, my last partner used to give me all these orgasms. How come you can't? Right?
Deborah [00:53:20]:
That's so.
Tallulah Sulis [00:53:21]:
It's so, like, devastating. Right. And hurtful. And it makes that their partner shut down even more versus making requests, you know, asking for adjustments, really being able to communicate in the moment and then having someone like me in the mix. If you're feeling like I'm lost, I don't really know what. I don't know that I don't know. And I just know that this isn't quite working for me, but I don't know what other possibilities there are. And then I'm there kind of being like, all right, let's take a look at this.
Tallulah Sulis [00:53:48]:
Let's let me watch some of these things happen. Let me see what's happening here. Let me see where things could be working better for you. Right? And that's where I get to sort of, you know, play like, sort of sexual private detective thematically and help people really discover what. What is very pleasurable. And I get to see what is quite. Isn't working or what needs to be directed in a different way. And then I can guide them.
Tallulah Sulis [00:54:13]:
And then it's like the aha moment of like, okay, yes, this makes sense. This works. And we know this is really good now we're so excited to practice this, and now we're feeling enthusiastic. Whereas before we were caught one of those negative feedback loops where it's just, like, not working and it's not working. It's not working and it's not working, you know?
Deborah [00:54:30]:
Absolutely. And I just want to add something in on the adjustment making. You know, when I. When I work with clients around this, one of the things I say is, it's like, you know, if you're on the receiving end of an adjustment, you know, try to imagine that, you know, let's. Let's flip the script. It's not about you doing anything wrong. It's more about, like, there's actually a place that a little to the left is going to have even more sense. And, you know, I invite people to, you know, when they hear the adjustment, to get in the habit of just saying thank you.
Tallulah Sulis [00:55:09]:
Right.
Deborah [00:55:11]:
And just because that Acknowledgment is a going to feel better to yourself, you know, because we don't generally thank people for criticizing us, but we do thank them when they're assisting us and helping us. And it also helps the partner who is making the adjustment to have a little bit more courage around what it is that they're going to ask for. And, you know, one of the reasons oftentimes that we don't say anything until we're, you know, mad, which is when it comes out sideways and ugly and critical, is that, like, you know, we don't have a whole lot of experience of having our needs of expressing ourselves and having that well received.
Tallulah Sulis [00:55:58]:
Yeah. And one of the things that I love to encourage couples to do is to have special attention time. And what that is is where partners are taking turns receiving special attention. And what's so lovely about this is we often don't get to receive special attention from our partner. Things are often happening where you're doing something to me and I'm trying to do something back to you at the same time. Right. And that's great. That's wonderful.
Tallulah Sulis [00:56:31]:
But oftentimes we don't get the space to just fully receive from our partner. Right. We sometimes feel like they're. I have to be re. Engaging or things have to be very like, oh, I. Or feel guilty about fully receiving. So a lot of people are like, oh, I'm going to switch things and turn that to you now because, you know, you touched me for a few minutes and now I need to do something back to you. The, the special attention thing.
Tallulah Sulis [00:56:55]:
And we say we can even. You can make cute dates about it. Be like, hey, do you want to make a date for you to receive special attention? And then it's like, okay, yes, sure. That would be amazing. And what would you like to receive for your special attention? Right. Oh, I would love, love, love to receive a full body massage. And you know that new toy that we got? I want to try that new toy out. And you know those feathers that we got and those sensory play toys.
Tallulah Sulis [00:57:22]:
Can we. Can you use some of the sensory play toys on me? And then I want a little, like, spanking and that, that leads into then playing with this new vibrator toy that we have, Right? Yeah, you got it. That sounds awesome. Right? And then that's it. That's it. That person gets to receive that special attention that could lead into something else, or it could just simply be that right. Then, then the next week or whenever the other person is like, okay, your turn to Receive your special attention. What would you like to receive? Right.
Tallulah Sulis [00:57:53]:
And this is really lovely. It really feeds the relationship and it allows you to just have time where you're receiving this very directed energy from your partner that's very present and attentive to your needs and it really can feel just super intimate and lovely. Right. And a new missing experience that most people don't get to ever receive. Right. A full on experience where it's like the world is your oyster. What would you like? I am going to give you your special attention. Right.
Deborah [00:58:22]:
That is so good. And I'm so glad that you brought up, you know, and went into detail a little bit about receiving because I find that many of us have received really good giving muscles, but our receiving muscles could use a little, a little workout. So I love special attention. That is such a fun phrase too. Yeah.
Tallulah Sulis [00:58:46]:
And it's fun to get creative with that special attention to real and to really have this opportunity to like feel deeply into what you desire to really feel like, oh, what is it? That feels amazing to me. What would I like to experience? And it's just so exciting to be able to get creative with how what you're receiving. Right.
Deborah [00:59:05]:
Ah, so good. So in a moment I'm gonna invite you to just ponder, like if there's one thing you wanted, some want people to get out of our conversation because it has been so good, what that might be. And while you're pondering that, I'm going to let people know how they can support the better sexual podcast. Because, you know, sex is a complex subject and it can make or break relationships. And unfortunately, most of us don't grow up in an environment where talking about sex is welcome. And that's why I created the Relationship Lab. It's an online space to explore new skills, ask questions and experiment so you can have more satisfying sex. Because let's face it, a podcast is not enough.
Deborah [00:59:55]:
Even as good as this one is, you have to take it out into real word practice. And so if you're ready for tips and tools and exercises to learn more, then I invite you to go to the show notes and check out the Relationship Lab. Because life is too short for bad sex. So on that note, I'm so curious, like, what do you want people to get out of our time together?
Tallulah Sulis [01:00:22]:
Well, I would love for to first share that how important it is to open up the lines of communication around sex. Right. That is a huge, pivotal, foundational element to all of this and to have actually exciting, supportive conversations around it too, where you're Able to share things that you really enjoy that are currently happening with a partner, things that you would like to experience, explore things that you would like more of or want to try, and then also reach out for help. Like I am here to help. I wish more people knew that the type of therapy that I do existed. It is somewhat rare and I work virtually and I work in person as well and that it's okay to reach out for support around sex. Right. It was such a faux pas back in the day to reach out for help with therapy in general.
Tallulah Sulis [01:01:13]:
Right. And it's still a little bit, you know, of a relatively new concept to reach out for help around sexuality. So I really encourage people to reach out and get help, even if it's just there's something they want to explore or there's something that's not quite some. Some loop or something that's happening with a partner that's not quite working. So it really is an amazing thing to be able to get guidance, support and help and have resources like online programs too and in person therapy or virtual somatic therapy. It is powerful, it is potent and it really is completely transformative in every way, shape and form. So highly recommend this type of therapy.
Deborah [01:01:56]:
So good. And where can people find you?
Tallulah Sulis [01:02:00]:
So you can find me at therapy in bed.com and that's my therapy website and has all my information and we'll do like a 15 minute phone consult and you know I'm here for you. So therapy in bed.com beautiful.
Deborah [01:02:15]:
Thank you so much, Tallulah. I am so delighted that we got to have this conversation. Please follow her, check her out in on Therapy in bed dot com. She's got some amazing additional resources, podcasts, thoughts and really beautiful website. Super helpful. And so again, thank you so much and thank you. Thank you all for listening. And if you want to help bring more love and better sex to the world, if you know somebody who could be helped by this conversation or any of the conversations here on the Better Sex podcast, please share it with your friends.
Deborah [01:03:03]:
Like subscribe Comment So good. Again, thank you so much, Tallulah.
Tallulah Sulis [01:03:11]:
Thank you so much for having me.
Deborah [01:03:13]:
My pleasure, my pleasure, my pleasure. And for those who are listening, thank you so much and bye for now.