Back to Women’s Pleasure with Pamela Madsen
In this episode of The Better Sex Podcast, I sit down with Pamela Madsen, a true pioneer in women’s sexual wellness and founder of the "Back to the Body Method." We dive deep into the transformative power of self-confidence, self-love, and how women can reclaim their erotic energy for more than just sexual expression—as a vital force in all areas of life.
Along the way, Pamela shares her journey, from her roots in the Bronx to creating immersive retreats in Joshua Tree that help women explore their bodies in safe, empowering environments. We talk about the holistic view of sexuality, where self-care, emotional wellness, and sexual health are all interconnected. Pamela tells us about her commitment to helping women embrace their full sexual selves.
During this conversation, we explore the importance of sovereignty of all kinds and how reclaiming control over our lives begins with understanding and accepting our own sexuality.
Join us for this candid conversation about how embracing erotic energy can lead to personal growth, confidence, and fulfillment.
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In our commitment accessibility, help make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who like to read rather than listen to podcasts. The transcription is far from perfect, and in some cases quite amusing. As we grow edited transcripts are on the list in the meantime please enjoy.
Deborah [00:00:02]:
All right. Welcome to the Better Sex podcast. My name is Deborah Catt, and I am your shameless host. This is the better sex podcast, where we have unfiltered conversations about sex and relationships. These conversations are frank and explicit and may not be appropriate for all audiences. So please listen with care. I truly believe that a sexy world creates a happier and a safer world. If you want to do your part to create a safe and sexy world, please hit like subscribe and leave a comment wherever you get your podcast.
Deborah [00:00:43]:
Today, we dive into the world of my guest, Pamela Madsen. She is a trailblazer in women's wellness, known for her transformational approach to self discovery and pleasure, as well as intimate connection. She is. She is one of a kind and freaking thrilled that you're.
Pamela Madsen [00:01:08]:
I don't know, but she's hanging out in this bedroom ready to talk about better sex with Deborah Cat. I'm sorry, I interrupted you raving about me.
Deborah [00:01:21]:
Yes. And that is exactly what I love about you. I love that you are unfiltered, that you are a come as you are in whatever way, shape, or form you are in, that you find the pleasure in the moment. And I'm just thrilled that you're here. And so, thank you for being a guest, for joining me. And speaking of transition, I want to say congratulations. I know you are in the middle of a heck of a transition, a whole new lifestyle. And so thank you for being a guest with all of that going on.
Pamela Madsen [00:02:01]:
My pleasure. How's it going? So, for people who don't know, I've been running international and continental US retreats now for, like, 15 years, and we haven't had a home base. And I live in Riverdale in the Bronx in New York until two months ago. And we're now sitting, actually, in a guest bedroom at the back to the body institute. We now have an institute. We now have a home. We now have eight acres of incredibly gorgeous, delicious property in Pioneer town in Joshua Tree. And it was gorgeous when we bought the property, but we've been spending the past two months making it even more gorgeous for our first retreat, which would be here in September.
Pamela Madsen [00:02:56]:
So, yeah, like, I'm not in a proper studio. I'm hiding out in a guest bedroom right now. Feels very white at the moment. There's more color if you like. If I turn the camera, well, you won't be able to see. Sorry, there's too much backlighting. And now you're nauseous because I just moved you all around. But we're on this really beautiful property surrounded by boulders and rocks and hawks and quail, and it's gorgeous.
Pamela Madsen [00:03:29]:
And there's no Bloomingdales or Nordstrom anywhere near me, so it's a whole. And food doesn't get, like, delivered to pioneer town. You have to actually go food shopping here.
Deborah [00:03:43]:
How very exciting.
Pamela Madsen [00:03:44]:
And I'm so really big transition for me. I can't, like, go, oh, on the mood for sushi for lunch. Let me just call palace of Japan, and in 15 minutes, it's delivered to my door. So I'm learning about, like, how to enjoy expanded arousal in from my genitals to how I live my life. It's not like, instant 30 seconds. You have, you know, the way we've been, you know, the way our focus has been trained to live. I'm now living a different focus, which is what we teach in sexuality, right. Is slow down, feel, notice what's around you.
Pamela Madsen [00:04:35]:
How does the environment affect your erotic experience? So I'm having that now from my genitals through my heart, through how I live my life is very, very different, very exciting.
Deborah [00:04:51]:
I bet. I love the pictures you've been posting of you in the desert. And one of the questions that I had about that is, so I'm imagining the way that the air feels on your skin, the sand beneath your feet, if you will, and I could talk a little bit about the sensual experience of living in the desert and how that might be different than the sensual experience of living in the Bronx.
Pamela Madsen [00:05:30]:
Well, I think the biggest thing is privacy and nature and having access to the stars and comets and the moon at night. And, you know, when I was living in Riverdale, I wouldn't think ever of doing a self pleasuring experience on my terrace. You know, that wouldn't occur to me. Also, my neighbor's window is right there. Right. But I've been having these really? And I'm going to use these words sparingly because I think they're overused. But I've had some extraordinarily sacred, beautiful, erotic experiences on the land with myself. And there was the big blue moon.
Pamela Madsen [00:06:27]:
That was last week, and my husband went to bed early, and I'm sitting out on our back, which faces these gorgeous boulders. And the big moon was right there, shining down at me in all of its moonbow colors. And I'm like, you know, like, what if, what if instead of, like, opening up my phone, right, my favorite little, like, horn, favorite little app, you know, and then taking out my. My power drill, which is what I call the magic wand, instead of, like, filling myself with images either in front of my face, which is nothing wrong with that, or from my spank bank in my head. Like what? Yeah, I. I allowed the moon. What if I allowed the moon open my legs to the moon, bows and let the moon have me? And I had this very different erotic experience. You know, Annie Sprinkle would call it an echo sexual experience, like having an erotic experience with your environment.
Pamela Madsen [00:07:49]:
And I got to have that, and I would not have that in. At least I wouldn't have it where I lived, which was a beautiful place in the city. But the land, the environment, the quiet, the privacy at night, the stars, the moon, it's very sexy. And if we open ourselves to the possibility, like, it's sort of like allowing yourself wherever you are, whatever you're doing, how can you use your erotic imagination, right? So really what I did was I. I called in my erotic imagination to have a hopefully consensual experience with the moon. And it was beautiful, and the moon seemed happy and I was happy. And so that is some of the ways that bringing my eroticism, bringing my life to the high desert, has begun to shift how I experience my own erotic self pleasuring practice. So now I keep my magic wand discreetly outside under a pow of blankets on one of the benches that we have out there, like nobody would notice.
Pamela Madsen [00:09:18]:
But when he goes to bed, you know, I could just. If I was in the moon, so maybe it wouldn't be the moon, but it might be the big dipper. I love that.
Deborah [00:09:33]:
Or the foxes or the cactus. Well, the cactus could be really interesting.
Pamela Madsen [00:09:37]:
Oh, but that could be fun in the right circumstances.
Deborah [00:09:43]:
Absolutely. So I'm curious, you know, speaking of the environment, and I know you've got your upcoming retreats are now going to be on this land. How, if at all, do you think they're going to shift the way you think about the retreats and the work?
Pamela Madsen [00:10:02]:
Well, a couple of things. We're still going to do a couple of international years, so we're still going to go to Sicily in 25. In Thailand, I and 25, just not constant. What the big difference about owning the land and owning the property, because I've been renting retreat centers for not decades, but like a decade and a half, is having control over the environment. So, like, being able to have beautiful bathrobes for the women, you know, waiting for them on their bed and face masks and, you know, locs, shampoo and creams and soaps and filling the drawers in the bathroom with anything they might need, like a razor, you know, or, you know, something to put under your eyes if you're feeling puffy. You know, like having the ability to really craft a all of the experience. As you know, we're very good at the erotic curriculum, but being able to, excuse me, really craft every part of a woman's experience. So I'm responsible for the photos that are on the wall.
Pamela Madsen [00:11:25]:
I'm creating the erotic temple. We've just finished a huge landscaping experience around the pool. You know, I'm really being able to put myself in the vision of what this should be or could be. And that's been really a beautiful use of erotic energy. And, like, putting my eroticism, like, I'm even feeling my vulva right now, getting warm, and I'm feeling arousal in my body because I'm talking about something that arouses me, which is the creation of this. I think there's such an interesting thing is that people see sex as one thing or the other. It's very narrow. So, like, sex is fucking or sex is oral sex or whatever it is, right? Some kind of touch experience, either with yourself or with another person.
Pamela Madsen [00:12:21]:
As you grow erotically, as you become more experienced and you really become an embodied creature, you start to notice that erotic energy flows through you all the time. I'm watching you right now, letting it flow, a little rocking going on. So we can use our erotic energy to bring to a lover, and we could also bring our erotic energy to the lasagna that we're cooking or to landscaping the land or, you know, like, you know, I used to work in fertility and infertility. I was very well known in that land. And I remember a woman, she lived on a goat farm, and she said, you know, I just don't know that I would ever be a mother. And I said, well, what is being a mother? It's creation. And you've created this incredible goat farm, and you're making soaps and cheeses and milk, and you're loving these animals. And so, no, you're not mothering a baby, but you are in a maternal, giving, nurturing, creative mode.
Pamela Madsen [00:13:38]:
And the same thing goes for sexuality. It's like, how big is your landscape? So I have eight acres of erotic energy out there that I'm filling up. And soon, other women, and there will be some men's, a couple retreat here, and there'll be men on the property. They're going to bring the masculine. And so there's going to be this beautiful combination of erotic energy on the property, which I think the property welcomes a talent response.
Deborah [00:14:18]:
Thank you for that. And I really want to just bring the attention of creativity and erotic energy. And in the tantra tradition, the second chakra is where sexuality is. Well, sexuality is our creativity. And our creativity, you know, as you brought to talking about, you know, fertility and having children, like, well, yes, this is the potency of our erotic energy. We can create life from it, as well as this incredible space that you're creating, whether it be the physical space or I love. You were talking about the details of, you know, what's in the drawer in the restroom. Like that is, you know, that kind of attention to detail allows that unfolding to happen.
Deborah [00:15:11]:
I also wanted to just go back for a second. You were talking about the big difference, having control over the environment. And one of the things that I love about your work is that it really, from my point of view here, one of the things that it does so well is it supports women in having more sovereignty, more control over not just our own bodies, but the way that we interact with ourselves.
Pamela Madsen [00:15:45]:
Absolutely.
Deborah [00:15:46]:
The way that we interact with others. And so I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about, you know, back to the body's work, specifically around pleasure and around. The word that comes to mind is ownership, self ownership. I don't know if that's.
Pamela Madsen [00:16:02]:
How about the word sovereignty?
Deborah [00:16:04]:
All right, we can go sovereignty. All right. And just. We'll start with, you know, the word gets used a lot, but I'm wanting. I'm wondering specifically the way you're using the word sovereignty. What does that mean?
Pamela Madsen [00:16:20]:
Well, sovereignty is a word, is, I think, perhaps one of the most important achievements a woman can have, and a man, too, but I particularly work with women. So being sovereign is really understanding your own sexuality, having voice and choice, right. And then to have that, are you sovereign? Are you in control of where you live? Are you in control of your money? Are you in control of your healthcare? Are you in control of your food? You know, our sex is connected to all of it. You can't just isolate your sexuality. If you're not in control of your finances. It's hard to be in control of your orgasm. If you're not in control of where you live and how safe you feel in your living environment. If you're living in a place of hyper vigilance, always having your antenna out, how can you relax into your sexuality? So all of these things, if you were to make a pie chart, if you were to do a web, you put sovereign sexuality, and then you started to draw lines, you know, I would start to say money, communication, safety, you know, I would start to work around all of these things.
Pamela Madsen [00:17:58]:
And if you can have, if you are able to say, yeah, I actually doesn't mean that you're rich or poor, but you understand your money, you're in control of your money, you're in control of your living environment, you are safe in your relationship. And I can go on and on around this, it's a very big topic. But start to look around like, are you in control of your healthcare? Are you in control of the food choices that you're making and your relationship? How sovereign are you independent yet connected to the people in your life, to your family? I think all of that impacts how we have erotic expression. You know, have you, have you done your work around your traumas? Have you done your work around your shadows? Have you done that work? Because you haven't done that work, then doing sex, doing embodiment is connected to all these things. And so the more that you can connect all the dots and weave it all together, the more sovereign you are and the better relationship you will have with your body, with your sexuality. And if you have partners, with your partners and lovers.
Deborah [00:19:37]:
And so I thought it was really interesting that you started with, are you in control of your finances? Because I think two of the biggest taboos to talk about at all are sex and money. Those are the two things that we as Americans have such a hard time talking about. And yet I agree with you. It is so important to know what is my relationship to my bank account. I used to say that I have a booty call relationship with money, that sometimes money calls and I come and sometimes I call and it comes and sometimes it just. I let the phone go to voicemail.
Pamela Madsen [00:20:26]:
I hear you. I hear you. And so I think it's just really important, you know, as you talked about chakras and the connection inside of our body to really start to weave the inside to the outside. You know, if you're living in any kind of vulnerable fear, it's very difficult to be in a surrendered place with your sexuality.
Deborah [00:20:55]:
Absolutely. And I'm wondering, you know, I hear you say that and I'm curious, like, there are things that you can control around your feelings of safety and things that feel out of control. And I'm curious what kinds of things you might have control over when it comes to safety.
Pamela Madsen [00:21:16]:
Well, you know, I don't want to be repetitive, but I think all the things that I just mentioned, if you don't think you have control over those things, I would look at that and explore. Like, wow. Like, I don't feel in control of my money. Well, that's an exploration for you, isn't it? Why don't you feel? Do you have your own bank account? I mean, a lot of women still don't. Even wealthier women who don't work, they should still have their own bank account, their own money separate from their partner, and that may be a conversation with their partner. Do you have a joint account? Do you have a separate account? How much control do you have over your money and where the money goes? You know, how much control do you have over where you live, over your partnerships, your erotic relationships? And if you don't feel like you're being heard, if you don't feel like you are honored, that's a wonderful exploration for you. So the question is, well, why not? What are you frightened of? What's holding you back? Can you speak up to power? You know, and then if you're able to do that, it's much easier to then decide that you're going to self pleasure outside with the moon because you feel safe in your environment. You know, it's going to feel good.
Pamela Madsen [00:23:01]:
You know, you can afford the space and the time. You know, it just all connects back.
Deborah [00:23:10]:
Right. And I think that's such a great first question. Why not? And all the things that come after that, because, as you said, the why not pieces. It illuminates where you're at and allows for that expansion into, well, where's the. Yes. Where are the places that I do feel safe? Where are the places where I do have more control? Where are the places where, you know, maybe not 100%, but I'm certainly moving in the right direction.
Pamela Madsen [00:23:47]:
Absolutely.
Deborah [00:23:49]:
I'm curious, you know, in terms of how this new environment has, I'm imagining, you know, most of your friends, either you move them out with you or, or they may not be, you know, they may be in a state or two away. And I'm curious, like, how, you know, creating a circle of women around you, if that's been something that you've found challenging, if that's something that you find easy.
Pamela Madsen [00:24:25]:
I've got a pretty good magnet. So, like, right now, people are coming to me. I've thrown some parties for my neighbors already. It's really about, again, I'm going to go back to the theme of sovereignty. I'm self confident about who I am in the world. And so I can go over to the fence and yell over and say, hey, neighbor, I'm your new neighbor. Come say hello and make a connection and say, hey, I would love to have a cocktail party. I don't know anybody.
Pamela Madsen [00:25:03]:
Would you help me? Would you help put out the invitation to the neighbors that I'm hosting an open house? And she said, of course. And two days later, I had a house full of humans. And so it is about, again, being confident enough about what you have to offer to the world. And again, it comes right back to our sex. Right? So it all ties in together. I feel confident being seen in who I am. I feel confident welcoming people into my home. I can make a good cheese board.
Deborah [00:25:39]:
You know, you can.
Pamela Madsen [00:25:41]:
I can make a dynamite cheese. And, you know, being willing to be seen in that hide. And that's the same thing with women on the table. So we practice sexual, logical body work or the back to the body method. And, you know, women get on the table, and sometimes they don't know what to do with their legs because they don't know. Can they open their legs?
Deborah [00:26:11]:
You know?
Pamela Madsen [00:26:11]:
And there are people, the women are saying, I want to open. I want to open. I want to open. Yes, darling, I know you want to open. Your legs are sealed shut. How can you relax? Do you feel safe enough here? Do you feel safe enough? Can you lift those legs? Relax. Can you let your legs open? Can you let your body open? You know, so whether I'm opening socially to my neighbors and inviting them into my home or I'm opening my legs and my body and my mouth to receive pleasure and touch and explore myself that way, there's also an opening and willingness to be seen. And these are learned skills.
Pamela Madsen [00:26:54]:
Deborah, I don't expect that everybody, you know, I think we're born with these skills. I think we're cultured out of all of this. But you can. There are tools, and you can be taught, and it can take, you know, but there's no magic pill for living this kind of erotic, sovereign life as a woman. There's no pill to take. It takes immersion. It takes time. You know, you didn't get wherever you are, I'm talking to you right now.
Pamela Madsen [00:27:25]:
Didn't get where you are overnight, didn't happen overnight. And you're like, sure, she can do it. She's Pamela Madsen. Yeah, Pamela Madsen is like the same kind of woman you are. I grew up with all the same stories that most women grew up with, and I went through an evolutionary investment in myself, in my sex. And then as I grew and felt more confident in my body, and that's not self love. Can I just be clear? Being confident in your body does not mean that you're in some great big love fest with yourself, because I think that's just another job that we set ourselves up as women to fail at. Did a big rant on Facebook and Instagram today about, like, self love being yet another job I fell at.
Pamela Madsen [00:28:15]:
You know, like, we're. We're kind of shifting a little bit, Deborah. But, like, we're. We're many parts. We have many parts of us, but not one thing or the other. It's not like, pass or fail. And so we tell women to go love themselves. It's like, you know, I can love my fingernails today.
Pamela Madsen [00:28:41]:
I can love the work that I'm doing today, but I really don't love some stuff that's happened today. And I don't love that last night after, you know, I'm at the stage of life where taking care of oneself is very important. And, you know, I did my 15,000 steps, and I ate really healthy food and all the things. And then I was relaxing in front of the tv and I started to eat. Mindless eating, self saboteur eating. I didn't love myself then. I wasn't loving myself. I didn't love myself the next day.
Pamela Madsen [00:29:30]:
I had to forgive myself. But I didn't love unconscious eating behavior. That was a saboteur to myself. That was not in my own best interest. And so I think we need to learn as women, it's okay if you don't love yourself all the time.
Deborah [00:29:51]:
Well, I think what you just said about forgiving yourself is so important because I certainly understand the mindless eating. You know, I've been so good all day long, and then all of a sudden, I've got cheetos in my mouth, or in my case, it's more like tiramisu. But, you know, and then it's sort of this whole, not only am I, you know, doomed because of this one moment, it's like it dooms me backwards and forwards again. So being able to sit with that moment of, like, wow, this is where I got to, you know, and I forgive myself for being there. And there is, you know, as you said, there is a part of me that I can still love, even in this moment. And so. And coming back and finding where that piece, you know, what is it that I'm able to love in that moment? And, you know, the forgiveness piece is so important because I think that in and of itself is an act of love.
Pamela Madsen [00:30:55]:
Absolutely. And also understanding, like, where is that coming from? And I believe in understanding your internal parts and your young parts and your different wounded parts. And what part is speaking right now? What part of you needs attention right now? What are you doing? Like, what is your action actually related to? That's a core need. That is. That's asking to be meth, you know? So, you know, I love that when we talk about sexuality that we keep going back to bigger and bigger and broader issues and that we begin to paint a picture for people that having a sovereign erotic life is a symptom of a healthy life.
Deborah [00:31:46]:
Oh, I like that.
Pamela Madsen [00:31:50]:
Yeah.
Deborah [00:31:54]:
Being healthy, being healthy, being sovereign, having an active, sensual, and erotic experience with self and other. I wanted to come back to a couple things. I'm just loving this conversation. So, first of all, you talked about sexological bodywork. And for anybody who is not familiar, I'd love it if you'd talk a little bit about what that is. And then I'm also curious about, I'd love to wrap back around to self confidence and how you grew your confidence.
Pamela Madsen [00:32:38]:
Sure. So sexual logical body work, or somatics, are body based education. I would go so far as to say that they are therapies, but people are very cautious about using that word in relation to this work because it's not licensed in that way. It's licensed as sex education. So in a lot of ways, what we're doing right now is sexological body work. We're educating and we're talking about sex. So that's an aspect of sexological body work as a sex education professional. The other piece is touch.
Pamela Madsen [00:33:28]:
So sexual logical body work professionals work in a touch modality. So at back to the body, we call it the back to the body method, which stands on the pillars of sexual bodywork. We work on massage tables. Women receive various forms of one way touch. They get to explore their bodies, understand their bodies in many different ways, from being able to listen to their parts, talk and make a body poem, to explore rope and suspension, and curious about spanking and never had an orgasm, don't understand arousal. So all of these things can be explored in a professional safe enough environment. We use the word safe enough, and we go back and forth like, is it safe? Is it safe? Is it safe? Well, will it disrupt your life? It may. It may change your life.
Pamela Madsen [00:34:28]:
It changed my life. Is that safe? I don't know. But what is true is that sexual boundaries are honored and actually dictated. My practitioners signed a contract with me, and what the contract says is they can keep their clothes on. That it's one way touch. We don't date clients here we don't have intimate, erotic, two way experiences here. We have intimacy here. We have caring, and we have humanistic love and care.
Pamela Madsen [00:35:08]:
Women experience epicurean touch. The practitioners who are here, who are somatic sex educators or sexological body workers, have a very large expanse of knowledge. And so if you've had trauma, if you feel armored, if you don't feel safe in your body, this could be for you. If you feel like a sex goddess, but you want to go deeper, you want to be a bigger sex goddess. I know this more in my body. Yeah, we can do that, too. We can raise pleasure ceiling with this modality. And, you know, in some ways, especially for people in partnership, it's a beautiful hall pass because you get to go and explore your eroticism in an environment where you're not.
Pamela Madsen [00:36:06]:
You're not encroaching on your relationship with your partner. Really important.
Deborah [00:36:14]:
It's very important. I know in my own life, a lot of my erotic exploration, my tantric exploration, was done as a solo journey so that I had the space without the dynamic of partnership, which is a beautiful thing. And, you know, sometimes it can be a little bit, you know, sometimes it can be more restrictive than expansive. But having that hall pass, as you said, you know, permission to go and explore and learn and, you know, expand on my own and then get to bring it back to my partner, who gets to see all these transformations and gets to be the recipient of, you know, the work that I've done and the pleasure that I've cultivated and the eroticism that I've discovered. And then I get to say, hey, babe, there's this thing. Would you like to try it?
Pamela Madsen [00:37:17]:
Yes, exactly that.
Deborah [00:37:20]:
So one of the things that you often talk about is getting to know your own pelvis. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about the pelvis and specifically what gets stored there and how opening up the pelvis is one of the. One of the pathways to more pleasure and more eroticism.
Pamela Madsen [00:37:45]:
Well, really talking about is being comfortable with our bodies, and that's really the root of all of it. What I believe, and this is a belief. This isn't a fact, okay. It's a belief. My belief is that, well, it's not just my belief. So chinese culture believe that the pelvic bowl is the cauldron. And that's where. And so if that's the cauldron, if our pelvic bowl is the cauldron of creativity, if it is the cauldron of life, it is where we manifest from your genitals is underneath that.
Pamela Madsen [00:38:34]:
And so living in arousal, living with hot genitals, is heating up your cauldron and helps you manifest what you want in your life. And so I live most of my life in arousal, so I can almost always feel my vulva being alive. And that's cultivated. I've cultivated that skill, and that has helped me manifest a lot of what I want in my life is because if I'm feeling turned on and I'm feeling alive, that I'm more likely to take risks, I'm more likely to make changes, to have adventures, to ask for what I want from a really full, embodied space. I hope I'm not talking jargon.
Deborah [00:39:32]:
Well, as I'm hearing you say that, it makes me think about what you said earlier, about being a magnet and being turned on and being willing to go to the fence and say, hey, neighbor, you know?
Pamela Madsen [00:39:45]:
Exactly.
Deborah [00:39:46]:
And to invite and ask for help and assistance. And I'm imagining that when you're not in that place, then it makes it a whole lot harder to go to the fence and ask for help or to stand out. And so it makes perfect sense that as you are more in touch with your genitals, your cauldron, that confidence comes up, and our genitals are absolutely connected to our throat and to what comes out of our mouths. And so I'm imagining, you know, one of the things we talk a lot about, tantra, is using sound and sound being words. And it's like, if you're turned on, you know, are you willing to say the thing? And it's a whole lot easier to say the thing, the thing that you really desire when there's energy behind it, when there's heat.
Pamela Madsen [00:40:48]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, I teach something like, I've named Lotus Lift meditation. And basically it's women meditating and arousal and actually learning how to listen to their internal gps, their internal guides. Because, you know, we talk about women often talking about being gaslit. Well, we gaslight ourselves. We don't need the patriarchy to gaslight us. We're always gaslighting ourselves and telling ourselves we don't listen to our bodies.
Pamela Madsen [00:41:30]:
And mostly, I think it's because women have been taught not to trust their bodies, or we have the entire United States government right now trying to control women's bodies. Well, that message is that we don't have the ability to control our own bodies. We must be regulated. There are no laws on the books for men's bodies. Only women's bodies are regulated. And so the message women get is we can't trust our bodies. We can't trust ourselves. So the work that we do is to connect women back to their pussies, connect them back to their cauldron, connect them back to their internal gps, and to use arousal as a tool, tool of self knowledge.
Pamela Madsen [00:42:16]:
And these are things that can be taught. Again, these aren't like pills that you take. These are skills. These are teachable, learnable skills. I have supported hundreds of women into finding their own way home. You know, my problem was called back to the body, not back to the partner. Okay? It's. You know, we often say we're a self school, not a sex school.
Pamela Madsen [00:42:49]:
And because we need to know self, we need to understand all the things that we're gently touching on today in order to live a fully erotic life.
Deborah [00:43:04]:
This is kind of an odd question, but I'm curious. You talked about the laws and the way that the government works with the female body, and I'm curious what. How it might change. How do you think it might change if we have a female president?
Pamela Madsen [00:43:25]:
Well, I think we'll have freedom. I think we will have somebody who radiates choice, who trusts women to make their own decisions about their lives and their bodies and not take that away. And I think that if we have a woman president, that she will fight for us. The question is, will women fight for us? Will women? Actually, I have listened to female sex educators who are pro the things that the Supreme Court has done and some of the doctrine that's being put forth by the Republican Party in the United States, and they're pro that. And I find it really extraordinary that female sex educators who are teaching women to be empowered are actually supporting women's rights to be taken away from them. And I've never in my years of being on social media unless it was somebody who was being really inappropriate towards me, like really trolly, very rare, very sexually aggressive, that kind of thing, blocked people or unfriended them. I'm doing it routinely now because I can't, and I don't want to get into a public debate with somebody, you know? But I get very disappointed when I see women with big female platforms, right, supporting, taking away women's rights. You know, the choice to have a baby is just as important as a choice not to have a baby.
Pamela Madsen [00:45:34]:
And both of those choices are being taken or are at stake right now in this election. I went through infertility. I made embryos. I did in vitro fertilization. I have two magnificent sons in their thirties. If we don't get Paris. There may be people who are not able to have in vitro, are not able to access assisted reproductive technology. It's not just about abortion.
Pamela Madsen [00:46:05]:
It's about reproductive help, reproductive rights, and the freedom to express our sexuality. Because if you think that that's not next. It's live and alive right now on social media. We can't write the word sex. We have to do all kinds of weird shit to get our message out because we're censored. So, yeah, I mean, if you're a woman and you're listening to this, what do you stand for? Do you trust a woman? Do you trust yourself? Get out and vote. Get friends. Get a carpool, go to.
Pamela Madsen [00:46:47]:
Go to the assisted living facility and help older people get to the voting booths. Being activists, because you're being an activist for all women in this country, and if this happens here, it will happen in other countries, too.
Deborah [00:47:06]:
Thank you. Absolutely. So in a moment, I'm going to ask you, other than get out and vote and bring your friends. If there's one thing you wanted people to get out of this conversation, what might it be? And while you're considering that, I'm going to take a moment and just let people know how they can support the better sex podcast. Because a podcast, as good as it is and as incredible as the conversations are, is not enough to really have an incredible sexual relationship with yourself, with others. You need support. You need help. And that's why I have the better sex bedroom breakthrough session.
Deborah [00:48:01]:
This is a personalized, one on one conversation so that we can figure out what's holding you back from sex and satisfying relationships. So please take a moment, check it out, and again, like, subscribe and comment where you get your podcasts. So, Pamela, I'm curious, what do you want people to get out of our conversation?
Pamela Madsen [00:48:30]:
That sex is evolutionary. It changes, and it's connected to all the parts of your life. And by putting your sexuality in the center of your life, that you will grow all the other aspects of your life. And these are all tools that you can learn, and it takes time and some dedication. But the homework is fun.
Deborah [00:48:58]:
Absolutely. The homework is amazing. And thank you so much for joining me here today. Where are the best places for people to find you?
Pamela Madsen [00:49:09]:
Well, I'm not hiding so people can find me on Instagram, hepamelamanson, on Facebook. I'm actually really verified on all those platforms. And I have an upcoming retreat in October in Joshua Tree, and it's limited in size. We have room, I think, for another six women. And it's non residential, and it's a Friday, Saturday and a Sunday in October. And you can come and learn some of these, come and get some of these skills and combine them with what they're doing with you, Deborah. So, you know, sex is an embodied experience. So come and see what is possible.
Pamela Madsen [00:49:59]:
And yes, follow me on social media. Go to backtothebody.org comma, my website. Sign up for the newsletter. Take the pleasure quiz. Get resources. Have a conversation with a sexologist. Tell your story. Sometimes that can be very healing.
Deborah [00:50:19]:
So good. Thank you so much for this conversation, Pamela. It has been such, such a pleasure. And for those of you listening, follow her on social media, Facebook, Instagram. Check out the newsletter. We're going to have a link to that in the show notes and highly recommend following her on Facebook as well as getting to experience her in person. So good.
Pamela Madsen [00:50:52]:
Lots of free content, people. Lots of free content. So thank you, Debra. I appreciate the time.
Deborah [00:50:57]:
Ah, thank you. Thank you for, for making this happen, for being willing. And for those of you listening, if you want to bring more love and better sex to the world, you know what to do. Subscribe like comment. Bye for now.
Pamela Madsen [00:51:14]:
Terrific. Thank you.