Better Sex Podcast: Behind the Scenes to Better Sex
Today on the Better Sex Podcast, we’re doing something a little different! I’m turning the tables (or mic) around and for the first time ever, I’ll be the guest and my dear friend, Missy Singer DuMars will interview ME! In this intimate conversation, nothing is off-limits! We’ll talk about my early relationships, unique childhood experiences, and how my passion for this work began. Along the way, we’ll chat about how to get your ’sexy’ on, the basics of Tantra, Kink, Communication, and what I see as the Three Pillars to Better Sex all peppered with fun stories!
Missy Singer DuMars, is a conscious businesswoman, a mindful farmer, a curious cook, a spiritual seeker, and the hostess of the Women in Food Podcast.
Highlights:
(02:30) How Deborah Entered the World Of Sex and Intimacy
(09:11) The Different Possibilities of Relationship and Sex
(15:39) Applying Sex and Intimacy from Personal Life to Professional Life
(18:21) Where does sexual arousal start?
(19:42) Ways to pleasure yourself
(21:12) Ticks to make you sexy and feel sexy
(21:42 ) Tantra and the Three Basic Broad Techniques
(28:33) Unconscious Mistakes That Can Destroy Any Relationship
(35:00) Better Sex for Couples
(41:50) The Definition of Kink and The Umbrella of BDSM
(48:04) Everything You Need to Know About Using Safewords
(52:57) The Key Role of Communication in Relationship
(01:05:48) Things Everyone Should Know About Relationships
Links:
https://bettersexforcouplessummit.com/
Website: https://www.womeninfood.net/
https://www.spiritbizpeople.com/
Https//crownhillfarm.com
Instagram: @crownhillfarmny
Facebook: Missy Singer DuMars
LinkedIn: Missy Singer DuMars
In our commitment accessibility, help make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who like to read rather than listen to podcasts. The transcription is far from perfect, and in some cases quite amusing. As we grow edited transcripts are on the list in the meantime please enjoy.
Unknown Speaker
Hello and welcome. This is Deborah Kat, and you are listening to the better sex podcast, the home of unfiltered conversations about sex and relationships, and how to make them better. In these conversations, I sit down with all sorts of interesting humans, and discuss ideas and strategies that you can try at home, so that we can all have better sex. It is my mission to fill the world with masterful lovers. I believe that better sex makes for a better world. So if you want to do your part, and help create a better world, please hit the like button, subscribe, leave a comment. And if you have questions about sex and relationships for me and my guests, please email Deborah Tunja at cat@gmail.com. The information is in the show notes below. So today, I'm going to turn the tables and the mic around and have my dear friend and co-conspirator interview me. My dear friend, Missy singer, do Mars is a conscious business woman, a mindful farmer, a Curious Cook, spiritual seeker and the hostess of the woman in food, women in food podcast, she is also a big part of why this podcast has come to be. So on that note, I'm going to invite you to introduce yourself, missy. And let's get this conversation started. Oh,
Unknown Speaker
my gosh, thank you, Deborah, I am so happy to be here. I can't even imagine over a decade ago probably sitting in your house talking about wanting to do a podcast together. And it took this much time. And here we are. And here we are. And if I recall, it was called the fourth cup of wine, third or fourth? Glass of wine, right? Because it was it was what comes out of us after that much wine. So we'll do our best to give you all the good stuff today. And I'm really excited to interview you. I know you said that. People want to hear more from you, as opposed to your guests. And I'm the lucky person and who gets to ask you. I think anything I want.
Unknown Speaker
Absolutely anything you want.
Unknown Speaker
Oh boy, watch out everyone. Here we go. I think I want to start out like I've known you a really long time. You've always been in the world of sex and intimacy in one way or the other in your work and your mission and what you're passionate about. But How the heck did you get started with that? Like, where did that start? Because I don't think I even really know the answer to that question.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, so I think at the bottom, at the very beginning, I just was one of these people who was born with a lot of sensuality and a lot of curiosity. And over the years, it's always been a place where I've put my attention. And I mean, I can remember. So back in the day, I found my mother's version of God and I can't even remember what the name of that book was.
Unknown Speaker
I know what I found my parents it was the joy of sex, the Oh my God. Oh, no. Sorry about a way to feed a young person's curiosity, that book would definitely be a way.
Unknown Speaker
Right. And for those of you that well, I don't even know if it's in print anymore. But what I remember most about it was it had these beautiful pictures that came from the Kama Sutra. And they were incredibly artistic and quite explicit and anatomically incorrect.
Unknown Speaker
Like, how does anyone ever make that happen?
Unknown Speaker
Right, right. So I just remember, like, that's really my first memory of like, a, you know, a visual experience of sexuality. But then, things just kind of kept coming up. I was curious about my own sensuality and sexuality. And experimented a lot, learned how to give myself pleasure. I was lucky to grow up in San Francisco.
Unknown Speaker
I was about to say, let's let our listeners know you grew up in San Francisco where it's definitely maybe a little more open a little more easy access to.
Unknown Speaker
Right. And they I mean, I was super lucky. Growing up, my best friend's mom was the manager of the stud and hamburger Mary's. And back in the 70s 80s and 90s. These were the places where alternative lifestyle happened. The stead was a prominent was an is a prominent gay bar, hamburger Mary's was just like like it was the place where people came together around sexuality, sensuality and gay liberation. And so I saw all of these different things. And like, my, my, my babysitter when I was seven was a drag queen. And so, you know, I just had this really open view of sexuality that I grew up in. And then when I started my own sexual journey, I started at the renaissance fair which if anybody hasn't been, it's all about costumes. But underneath that it's about power dynamics, and you have costumes, and you have props, and there are all of these different improvs that we would play out in during the day. And then at night, in actors camp, some of these games would continue. But I actually got to see a lot of different kinds of relationships, it was the first time I really saw what was possible in places like poly or where people had more than, you know, one relationship or family, you know, what's considered leather families, which is families or groups of people who come together around kink. And so if I, you know, when I, when I see that I'm like, Oh, well, I had a really diverse background in life. But then I was thinking about it, you know, when I was my sister was in town, and we were talking about seeing all of these different relationships play out around us. And the relationships that we saw that seemed successful, tended to be the alternative ones, right? My mom was divorced. So, you know, that was one kind of relationship we saw. And my, you know, my, the other more traditional straight relationships around us, didn't look like a whole lot of fun. They were, you know, a lot of animosities, not a lot of connection. Whereas the alternative relationships seem to have more juice, they seem to have more passion, honestly, they seem to actually like each other better. I remember being, you know, my sister and I were talking about Mr. Johnson and his two wives. And like, we were seven and nine. And it didn't even occur to us until like, a year ago that they had a poly relationship. He, you know, he had two women and many, many children. And it was, it was awesome. Like we would it was the place we wanted to be, because there was a lot of joy in that family, a lot of love in that family, and a lot of just fun. And so
Unknown Speaker
like, you definitely got a lot of different exposure to actually what I'm thinking about is one of the things I know you talk about now a lot is really creating your own relationship and creating it exactly how you want it to be, and there's no right or wrong. And it sounds like that early childhood, exposure to diversity of relationships and types of people and forms of sensuality and sexuality really, is at the core of what you teach an advocate now around creating relationship and designing your relationship how exactly how you want it to be. Yeah, absolutely.
Unknown Speaker
I think, you know, what we're what we see in the mainstream is to people, and you know, it's a very narrow experience of what relationship is possible. It's also incredibly narrow around what sexually as possible, like, what we're shown is two people come together, there's generally they see each other across the crowded room, they come together, there's escalation, penetration, climax, both people climax, they're generally like, you know, very loud and both at the same time and then the next scene we see is, you know, they're drinking coffee or something else, but Like, that's not the way that most people have sex like it just isn't, isn't not because it's not mechanically accurate, but it's just the there's a lot of pieces that and preferences and experiences. Now not everybody is, you know, not everybody is that fast. Oftentimes most women don't actually climax from penetrative sex, we genuinely need more, more stimulation on either clitoral or other parts of our body. You know, not all men are ejaculators. And climax is not the end of the experience.
Unknown Speaker
Certainly, anyway, I've heard you say that many times, we could go down quite a path there. But we can leave it at that for now. Unless you have more to say about that.
Unknown Speaker
I am good for the moment.
Unknown Speaker
So I'm curious because I know. Okay, so we've talked about kind of different kinds of relationships you've seen, I know, and you share on your website, and in various places you've shared about your own relationship during the journey on the releasing side of things. And it's taken you a while to figure that part out as well. Oh, yeah, almost seems like the sensual sexual part was the easier part to figure out. And
Unknown Speaker
yeah, I mean, I think I would say that's probably accurate. I think that, you know, I'm somebody that just really has always been very embodied very much liked, loved, enjoy living in my body, and very sensitive to touch and sound and the sexual experiences. So that's actually a lot easier than the interpersonal pieces. So I've been with my partner now for, let's see, I believe we're completing 23 years and going into 24. No, and, you know, that whole time we've been non-monogamous. And, you know, it's funny, because while I've had, while non-Monogamy was something that was in my field for a really long time. In fact, when I, when I was at camp, when I was like, 13, I had my first experience of having two boyfriends. And so so even that was in my field for a really long time. It never quite seemed to be for me. And so when I got together with my partner, he was, you know, he told me right off the bat, like, I'm not monogamous. That's not the kind of lifestyle I want. And I was like, oh, okay, well, we'll see how this works out. And literally, on the drive home, I was like, wow, if, if he doesn't have to be monogamous, then I don't have to be monogamous. And it was like, oh, there's this, there's this place of freedom. And, you know, one of the things I want to say about non-monogamy is, like all relationships, it can look however it is, that suits the people involved. For some people, that means that they're allowed to flirt and cuddle with anybody and everybody, and that's the scope of their, you know, their, their non-monogamy. And then for other people, they have full on fully formed relationships, either internally woven with their partnerships, or are completely separate. And so there's a huge span. And, you know, over the years, our relationship has looked a lot of different ways. You know, my partner tends to be more of much more related, like, my partner tends to be more relationship relational than I tend to be when I date outside of, of our, of our experience. So I would say that I was more of a sport experiencer where I would, you know, I would want the experience of new people and I would want the experience of like, you know, what's possible in Tantra, what's possible in kink what's possible in, you know, orgasmic meditation, like all of these different things, were of interest to me, and they weren't so much of interest to my partner, so I had the freedom to go off and find other partners who would be interested. And so that's pretty much how we operated where I was not so much in, you know, looking for lots of new ways. studentships as much as I was looking for lots of experiences. And he is much more, you know, wants to really go deeper with fewer people.
Unknown Speaker
So, so with all that exploration for you personally, that I understand, tell us about, like turning that into your work and your business in the world. And I know that's had a number of different chapters and iterations along the way as well. But what made you decide to not just have it be your personal life, which many people do, but to also have that be your professional life? Yeah, so
Unknown Speaker
couple of things happens. So first of all, I spent many, many years as an essential Mrs. which I absolutely loved.
Unknown Speaker
And how did that happen? How did you start that
Unknown Speaker
I literally went to massage school and knew that that was that so I went to massage school. And the whole time, it was like, the body is amazing, the body is beautiful, but don't touch these eight inches. Right. And so
Unknown Speaker
we were like, that's the only part I want to touch.
Unknown Speaker
It's not the only part. But it's awfully fun to see what happens when you do touch it, like, you know, whether it's on the male body or the female body, like my whole, like, the mantra in the back of my head is always whether, you know, in a sensual massage, or in a, you know, a BDSM scene or whatever it's like, well, what happens if I do this. But, um, so I pretty much knew going to massage schools that, that I wanted, I wanted to, I wanted to give a full body massage, and that included everything. And so I was again, lucky to be in San Francisco, and lucky to be in a place and a time when, when I could, when these skills were valued. And so I for many years, you know, good central massage, and it was amazing, it was a great experience, I loved working with my clients. And, you know, loved the opportunity to give and receive pleasure, and to have that as not just a, you know, a vocation as well as, as a place of passion.
Unknown Speaker
It's always amazed all the years I've known you, it's always amazed me that you can do that and enjoy it and do it so well, like some of us are just built for that. And some of us aren't you and I were having a conversation the other day about attraction and desire. Do you remember, you said something about, I'm totally impressed and amazed at how you can find a way to have attraction with anyone, which I think is also a part of who you are as a person of really caring, giving full attention and compassion to every person. But, you know, in the physical realm, I've always been impressed because I just don't have that thing. And I think a lot of people don't burn some people like yourself do it's super amazing.
Unknown Speaker
Well, I truly believe that turn-on starts over here, right? So I can, I can close my eyes and I can slow down and I can put my attention down on my PC and I breath and like,
Unknown Speaker
there you are.
Unknown Speaker
And so I think that, you know, when I'm turned on, and when I would show up, I can show up in that space. And so it helps the people I'm with to actually drop into their own bodies and to create their own turn on. And there's, there's just like it's funny, I love humans one on one as a species, I'm not so sure. But like, there is something about being in front of somebody and allowing yourself to drop in. Or at least for me when I allow myself to drop in to find my own turn on. And then I allow that to be what guides me and I can see in that other person. You know, it's it's just so like the vulnerability in that space is exquisite.
Unknown Speaker
Can you give everyone a little? I mean, you started to describe just your own way, but can you give us a little how to drop into that to play with that ourselves?
Unknown Speaker
Sure. So I mean, I think for me, the first thing is you No feeling my own body. So oftentimes it's feeling my feet. And then just you know the place of contact. And then even just taking my hands and having them on my night, my size and actually feeling the warmth of my size, feeling the hair underneath my fingers. And then bringing my attention down to the base of my spine and just allowing myself to slow down and take a deep breath into the nose. And feeling that feeling of fullness at the top and exhaling giving a little bit of a squeeze to the genitals or a lift. And just yeah, that's, that's where I would start.
Unknown Speaker
Thank you. I love that you said that about your hands on your thighs, because I have shared with so many of my friends. So I've been out dancing your lesson on how to always dance sexy man I share that absolutely is. So listeners, if you ever want to look sexy or hot on the dance floor, no matter how good or bad you dance, just put your hands on the top part of your thighs on the front of your thighs and keep them there as you move. And it all looks sexy, and it feels sexy. Like it feels sexy in your own body. So then it becomes even sexier. And I don't remember where we were clubbing or dancing when you taught me that. But I tell so many friends that when I'm out and I do it plenty of times to get myself into that place. So I love that that was part of this meditation as well.
Unknown Speaker
Oh, yeah. And, you know, I mean, I think, like I just go back to so in Tantra, there are three very basic, broad techniques. One,
Unknown Speaker
can you say what Tantra is in case? Some listeners are not really sure.
Unknown Speaker
Sure. So Tantra is a big word, many linner many, it's got a big history, it's got many lineages, it is a Sanskrit word for, for weaves, for weaving. And for me, it's basically a spiritual practice that allows the body as a vehicle for union with self, for union with another for union with something bigger, for union with spirit. And so. So yeah, it's been it's been my personal practice for the last
Unknown Speaker
Gosh, longer than I've known you.
Unknown Speaker
So, you know,
Unknown Speaker
for the tantra community, in fact, so that's, yeah. Right.
Unknown Speaker
So so for the last 20 years, it's really been my practice, and, but what I was gonna say is, within Tantra, there are three very main, you know, practices or techniques. And the first is movement. And so that can mean anything from just like bringing your attention down to your genitals, taking a wit, you know, and lifting and releasing, or it can be, you know, a full on, out in the middle of the forest dancing around the bonfire. And everything in between, but movement is a, it's super important. It's important, you know, for well being, it's important for great sex, it's important for good sex, very important, then the next one is, is breath. And if you think about it, I mean, it makes perfect sense. It's like, the, if, when we stop,
Unknown Speaker
you're dead, if you're not breathing, when you stop
Unknown Speaker
breathing, you're dead, right? But it's like, we can use breath as a, as a vehicle to, you know, to, to slow ourselves down. When we take deep breaths, in through the nose, out through the mouth, that's a cooling breath, right? But it's also there's ways to, you know, if we need more energy, there's breath techniques that are heating breaths. And if you think about it, in sex, you know, and oftentimes, when we get close to climax, people will generally you know, hold their breath. And that's, you know, you might want to consider the next time that you are, whether you're self pleasuring or with a partner, but like as you start to build that, that sexual tendon 10, add tension, and you get closer to the edge. You know, see what happens when you hold your breath. But see what happens when you actually consciously take a deep breath, or slow breath. It's really fun to play with. And then
Unknown Speaker
yeah, I always found breaths. For interesting coming from body work, and various meditation backgrounds as well, because it's something, to me, the breath has always been a bridge between the conscious and the unconscious mind or subconscious mind. And because it sort of subconsciously is happening all the time, we don't not thinking 24/7 About breathing, but you're always breathing, but then you can use it, you can consciously take it over, and there's no other mostly no other body function that works like that. And so I think that's why a lot of meditation practices and transcendent practices, use breath in those ways. And I also think it's interesting because your breath can tell you information about your state, but then you can also use it to change your state. So it's, it's, it's super potent. Tool. Yeah. Yeah. So what's the third?
Unknown Speaker
The third is sound, right? And if you think about it, sound is so powerful, whether we're making, you know, the sounds of the body, or whether we're actually speaking things into being right. And so, you know, it could be something along the lines of, you know, when we are connecting with ourselves, it may be just more guttural sounds or sounds of the body, you know, or when we are with a partner, it could be giving them you know, adoration about what it's like to be in their presence, or how much we love them, or how sexy we find them, or how much we're just like, driven to be with them in this moment. Because Oh, my God, your presence is overtaking me. I mean, there's just sound is awesome. And then it really is part of it's part of our magic, right? When we declare something, right, when we say something and make that statement, and this is, this is what we want. There's power there. And whether it is in, you know, manifesting that which what we that we would, that we wish to bring into the world, or whether it is a way that we want to expand our sexuality. There's a lot of power there in both the sounds and the words.
Unknown Speaker
Thank you for that quick Tantra lesson. Awesome. So I know I mean, you've talked about so far, your life sounds amazing and fun. But I know like relationship was not always that way. I know you've had, you know, they're like any human relating to other humans. It's, there's challenges and I know, in the relationship side of things, it definitely was a journey for you of figuring that out. So before you got to this point of route, you know, having been an expert in this field of relationship and intimacy and sex for over two decades, you know, what, you know, are there some turning points or moments? Well, absolutely crushed bottom relationship, like, give us give us the nitty gritty, let us know, you're like the rest of us. And you're not an expert. Yeah. You know, what would be like, is there a major relationship, something that, you know, really kind of woke you up or shifted things for you? Well, I
Unknown Speaker
think, you know, there a couple of big turning points for me. One was, like, I was pretty shameless in my Sex Up until, you know, I had a lot of, you know, my boyfriend's came from the Renaissance Fair. We had a shared language, we had a shared way of doing things. And then when I stopped dating guys from the Renaissance Fair, then, you know, it was like, I started dating guys who didn't have this as their baseline. And so they were like, well, what do you mean you want me to, you know,
Unknown Speaker
shows up in costume and carry a sword around? Yeah,
Unknown Speaker
yeah. What do you mean you want me to be your stableboy and you want to be my mistress? What do you mean you want to be the washer woman and I'm going to be the great Lord. Like, like we there's this huge disconnect and, and the thing about that was is that like, it just brought up all the shame like it all it made me feel like too much. You know, I, I felt too, you know, too lusty to busty too much, right? And so that was really hard because then I shut things down a little bit. Actually, I shut things down a lot. And I started dating from the list. And what I mean by that is You know, oftentimes, when we're dating, we're told we should make a list of, of what we want, you know, and, and so I was, I made this list of like, I wanted a guy who, you know, was going, and but the list was all about me changing for them, right? So,
Unknown Speaker
for example, what Give me Give us an example of what you mean by that.
Unknown Speaker
Um, so gosh, I, I wanted, I wanted, I really wanted just to be normal, right? Like, I wanted to have a boyfriend that like I could go to,
Unknown Speaker
you wanted to quote normal boyfriends. So you would have to be normal with them.
Unknown Speaker
Right? Well, I wanted a normal boyfriend, and I didn't realize about if he was normal, then I would kind of have to be normal to. And what that meant to me at that time was like, normal, respectable, you know, kind of more from the movies kind of guy. And, and I also really was wanting at one point, I was really wanting somebody that was going to be, you know, super masculine, and like, so I could be my super feminine. And needless to say, none of these things worked out very well, because
Unknown Speaker
it's interesting. Finish your sentence,
Unknown Speaker
you're just gonna say I was chasing a stereotype.
Unknown Speaker
I was chasing like you were talking about the stereotype from movies, because I feel like I've noticed in the past number of years, because I'm totally a sucker for a romantic movie always will be that it's changed. And I see more romance movies, especially ones that are young people romance movies, where it is about the quirky person who's not quite quote, normal. Like there's more of those coming out. Now. I'm curious if you've noticed that or what you think about that shift in what culture is saying relationship is or isn't? Yeah,
Unknown Speaker
I feel like there is definitely becoming more, more freedom and more acknowledgment around, not just the diversity of types of people and types of relationships there are but like, what is compelling to see. And I think what's really compelling is authenticity. And, you know, I think that when people show up, when people are willing to show up, quirky and weird, although some of us can't help that anyway. But like, we make peace with that, you know, it's like, then there's, there's a depth that we can go to. There is a connection, that's possible, because we're willing. I mean, I think the best conversations and connections I have are always the deeper ones where they're more, they're more vulnerable. They're there, we're sharing the thing that, that, that if somebody in one of my relationships, we OCC, I used to say the edgy thing I don't want to say is, right, right, right. And then it just, I mean, it was enough of that it was enough of a of a lead in to be able to share that thing that's edgy. For me.
Unknown Speaker
That's kind of like you've actually made that part of your work, too. Because you often talk about answering the questions for people that make them blush, it's like that edgy thing that they really want to know. But they don't know who to ask or they're a little embarrassed to ask anyone. And, you know, that's become such a big part of what how, how you show up with your clients and with, with people with your friends as well, I would say because we all call you questions, thinking about a recent call myself and another friend, man to you. Right, exactly those questions. It's like, Wait, you've got a question. I know the person to answer it.
Unknown Speaker
Right? Well, you know, it just I think being willing to lead with vulnerability allows others to be able to show up and being willing to claim you know, that part of me slash us that is alternative that doesn't fit in the box allows for much more interesting and fertile conversations.
Unknown Speaker
So in a moment, I want to ask you more about the things that don't fit in the box like you've touched on a little bit of kink, and also you know how to lead with vulnerability and, and your deep dive into communication and relationship. But before I ask you those things, I know you've got something exciting coming up that you would like to tell us about. Why don't you share that first?
Unknown Speaker
Thank you. Yeah, no, I am so freaking excited. I am, I had this moment where I was like, I think, I think I need to do more with the podcast. And so the better sex for couples summit was born. And I'm bringing together a dozen experts to talk about three main areas of sexuality that I feel like are the building blocks as of what makes great sex. And that's communication, and empowerment, and pleasure. And so it's a free three day online event. And it is specifically for couples but not limited to couples. So if you're interested in having better sex about listening and learning, then I hope that you'll join us. It is better sex for couples.com is the website.
Unknown Speaker
Well, it's actually better sex for couples. summit.com, I believe just to double check.
Unknown Speaker
You are right. I'm excited and nervous. Okay, so better it will be in the show notes so that you can, you can learn more, you can join us. And it's coming February in February, the first weekend in February. Super excited. So. So yeah,
Unknown Speaker
yeah. And I have the great privilege of having a little behind the scenes, sneak peek. And what I can say is, if you're listening to this, and you want to improve your sex life, you want to explore, like the whole range of topics of intimacy, and deepening connection with your partner, and so much on these three areas, communication and relationship. Empowerment, and pleasure are what I call bedroom skills. This is definitely the summit to be at. So Deborah, what's the website one more time so people can sign up? Now a little bit of early bird waitlist sign up? It's what is
Unknown Speaker
it better sex for couples? semuc.com.
Unknown Speaker
Awesome. Thank you. So yeah, you're welcome. I'm so excited for it, it's gonna be super fun. The guests are amazing. Like I said, I've had a I've had an early sneak peek behind the scenes, peek behind the curtain experience of it. So I recommend getting there.
Unknown Speaker
And I I you know, I am looking at really covering things that people don't often talk about. You know, in the communication section, we're going to be talking about how do you repair? How do you have your vulnerability? How do you have your boundaries? And how do you have that repair conversation so that you can come back together again, right? In the in the empowerment section, we're talking about how to be an empowered being with another empowered being, and how to have to both have what you want without, without having to compromise and give up on things that are important to you. And in the pleasure section. Well. There's also to get stuff in the pleasure section. Yeah, so
Unknown Speaker
it's all sorts of good stuff. But I know there'll be a little bit of kind of bondage and kink conversation. I know there'll be a little bit of like the actual chemistry of sex and how to work with it. For your pleasure, what else?
Unknown Speaker
Oh my goodness, we talk about like, what happens when you've got two different people who come from two different points of view and how do you find each other we talk about and each of the guests are bringing, you know, real tips and strategies that you can play with right away, just like we were talking earlier in how to move your breath and how to get turn yourself on. There are all sorts of moments like that the throughout the summit.
Unknown Speaker
And I think one of the cool things is is you like you've mentioned you have over two decades of experience in this field of sex and intimacy and relationships and you know, everybody like everybody if you don't personally know them, you know, at least know of them. You've studied them or worked you, you're aware of who they are. And so I think this is so exciting because you're bringing together these over two decades of your experience and connections, all in one place for people. Whereas usually you'd have to like go to this expert and go to the expert and, and Google this topic, and then Google that topic. And you're bringing it all into one place, all your years of experience, and all the relationships and connections you've spent all this time building. So to share it with people, and to further your mission, have happier people, because they have better sex in the world.
Unknown Speaker
Absolutely, absolutely.
Unknown Speaker
Cool. So I want to get back to you were talking before we talked about the summit, you're talking about vulnerability. And you've also mentioned kink a little bit. So I wanted to get you know, you talked a lot about studying Tantra, and some of your experience with Tantra, and different modalities and different schools of that. Where does the kink come into all this? Yeah. So like, how do those two things even go together? Because they seem, if you don't know a lot about it, they seem like kind of, they don't work together, like one is super spiritual and meditative. And? Well, I think it doesn't seem like it is.
Unknown Speaker
Right? I mean, I think I think, I think it's a big mistake, to look at kink and say, Oh, that's not spiritual. And I think it's a big mistake to look at Tantra and say, Oh, that is not grounded. And I believe that's where the two kind of come together. It's like, if you think about, for instance, the idea of, well, first of all, I just have to say that kink, kink, again, is a very broad subject.
Unknown Speaker
As you just define, I dove right into that without even why don't you tell our listeners in case they don't have their own ideas like What do you mean by kink? Sure.
Unknown Speaker
So, I believe the dictionary definition basically says that kink is something as an alternative sexual experience. And basically, if you get out of missionary position, you are kinky. And then, you know, the broader, more general terminology or thoughts about it tends to look at the umbrella of BDSM. And BDSM is basically three different concepts. Its bondage and discipline, sadomasochism
Unknown Speaker
on dominant, submissive,
Unknown Speaker
and it's and submission. And so these are three different concepts of how you work together. So for instance, with dominance and submission, that's, that's about playing with power, that's about playing with the dynamics. And if you think about tantra for a moment, right there, the dynamics of the feminine and the masculine and how those two play together, so I kind of think of that, you know, with the dominance and submission. So s&m tends to be about sensation, right? It tends to be one person really likes to give sensation, one person really likes to receive sensation. Right? And, you know, the bondage and discipline that tends to be also in the body. And one of the ways that, like I said, I didn't even realize I was kinky until I stopped playing with kinky people. Because it just was so
Unknown Speaker
normal, you didn't even know there was something else. Right?
Unknown Speaker
Um, but like, we really played with a lot of different things like what is it feet? You know, what, how does sensuality? How is it enhanced when you take when, when you for instance, wear a blindfold? Right now is how is sensuality accentuated when you are restrained? And I know for me and my own experience, being restrained was a huge deal. Like it was because I'm a bit of a control freak. I'll just put that right out there. But so. But it was really a turning point for my relationship, right? Because he'd wanted to try it. I was kind of a no and then because I'd always thought, Oh, they're gonna tie me he's gonna tie me up and he's gonna, like, just mess with me. He's gonna poke me and it's gonna be horrible. But then it was this idea of like, well, what if I tie you up? And what if I'm right there, and what if I want to keep you warm and safe and Central? And I was just like,
Unknown Speaker
Number two, huh?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. And so, you know, we basically negotiated, which meant that like he, you know, we basically decided what was going to be in our playtime, and how long our playtime was going to be, and what signals we were going to give to each other if you know if it was time to end. So, and then you know how we wanted to end our time together. And so it was really quite cathartic because I had this safe place to lose control. Right, I had something to push up against.
Unknown Speaker
That kind of reminds me of what you recently wrote about having grown up in foster care and have or partially lived in foster care, and how that gave you that same thing that container and boundaries to push against?
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, very much. So. Um, and, you know, it's, it's like, so it's like, there's the physical aspect of, of, of, you know, pushing up against something, and the emotional rollercoaster that can go with that. And then, you know, boundaries being a place to, again, push up against, but in a more intellectual, emotional way, right?
Unknown Speaker
I think of boundaries like that, like a Tupperware container, right? Stuff can slosh around and not spill out, right? When you tight container. Everything couldn't be messy inside and splash and spill, and you can like toss the container around and it doesn't go all over the place and all over everyone. Yeah. Right.
Unknown Speaker
And if it does happen to explode, there's a mechanism for cleaning it up. There's, there's a mechanism. Right paper towel and or reconciliation process. And, you know, one of the things I found both in, in, you know, playing with restraint and boundaries physically, and just the emotional boundaries, is that like, freedom is really an inside job. Right? Like, I feel like I can find more freedom in a, you know, three by five space, then like a can, if there's, you know, there's quote, unlimited, you know, there is there are no boundaries.
Unknown Speaker
And that seems very, you know, counterintuitive to what one would usually think, which is also, what brings me to a question about kink. Because if you hear anything about kink, you usually hear someone say that the submissive is the one with all the power, which is counterintuitive in a similar way. But can you like, see what that actually means is I've never heard hear anyone really, they say that phrase or trope, they don't actually, you know, how does that actually
Unknown Speaker
work? Well, I think in a very basic way, if you're playing with safe words, which is means that it's a community, safe words are a communication skill. And basically, what it is, is it's a way for the sub and the DOM or to communicate what's actually going on in, in how the how much intensity is going on in the scene. For instance, I like to use the safe word, mercy, to let my you know, to let my sub, so I generally dumb. So I'll have I'll tell my son, my sub will have two safe words, one will be mercy, which lets me know that they're on the edge. This is good. They don't want me to stop. But I, you know, they're they're very, they're there, it's 75% or more. And then red tends to be the safe word that stops the play. And so I think what people say often when what people mean when they say that the seven is in charge, is the sub gets to the sub can end the scene by calling read. I think
Unknown Speaker
that seems to me that also the sub choosing to sub is a moment of power.
Unknown Speaker
Absolutely. But I mean, it's, you know, stepping into either submission or dominance is it can be a very empowering experience because if you think about it, if you're stepping into the dominant role, what that means is you are creating a container, you are creating an atmosphere, you are creating a you know, you you are holding the sub Is garden is taking, you know is given the opportunity to surrender, right? The opportunity to let their walls down to not have to think feel, you know, there's they're not they don't have to do anything there in the response, I mean, both the Dharma and the Sabbath, they're doing it well, it's it's a, it's a given retake response. And you know, a dance of swords. But both aspects are very powerful. It's incredibly powerful for somebody who spends their life making decisions, making choices, you know, very tight to, you know, allow themselves the, the gift of submission, right. It's funny, I think the gift of, you know, we be the, one of the things we often talk about in kink, or BDSM is the gift of submission, right, giving the DOM the gift of your submission. But I think it's even more personal than that, like giving yourself the gift of submission, the gift to, you know, be the slosh.
Unknown Speaker
Well, yeah, I mean, if you're typically like a type A tightly wound in control person, or in charge and decision maker of everything, to like, give yourself the gift of relief, it's like a release valve to not have to make decisions, at least in for an hour or whatever, from one part of your life for a few minutes, and that can be the actually probably helps you be the boss everywhere else to have that place where you can let go of control and let go of leadership.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, and I think, you know, also you learn how to collaborate. I mean, you know, ultimately, this is a collaboration, you know, but I would say that ultimately, all relationship is collaboration.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. And that actually brings us to my next question or thought is like, it seems to meet, you know, you talk about the major areas of communication impairment and bedroom skills. And we also talk about tantra, and kink and, and all your skill and expertise in all that, and the glue that seems to hold it together, or that is required, is the relationship communication piece. You know, without that, it seems like none of the other can happen, and you're not going to feel empowered with yourself or with someone else, you're not going to have pleasure in, you know, in what you're doing or not doing. You know, say more about how you dove into, you know, how you discovered the key role that relationship and communication plays in the whole enchilada.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. Well, I, I think, hearing you say that, I would say and since we've been talking about it, it's probably just having the practice of communicating and creating a scene together through the kink world, right? Because basically, what happens is, and one of the things I love about kink is so much is talked about, right? You know, Dan Savage talks about how straight people, there's an expectation of what's going to happen when you come together. So we don't really talk about our likes and our dislikes, right? If there's two straight people coming together, the assumption is, there's going to be a, you know, a pussy and a cock. And at some point, there's going to be penetration, and climax, right. And
Unknown Speaker
maybe it's in the middle. Yeah, maybe in
Unknown Speaker
the middle, right? But don't actually take a whole lot of time to actually talk about what we like, and how we like it, and where we like it. And when we like it, right?
Unknown Speaker
And that's like a baseline of kink. Absolutely. That conversation.
Unknown Speaker
Right? The baseline of kink is, it's like, oh, what are you into? Really, I'm into this, you're into that. We've got some overlap. So then the next question is, do we want to play together? Then the next question is, so we've decided we want to play together, then we get to decide, you know, what version we're going to play? Who is going to take what role? What is not want? What do we not want? What do we want? How, how am I going and how am I going to recognize that you're getting what you want, right?
Unknown Speaker
You know, first, imagine if we took that into every relationship Wow. Right? Oh, transform the planet. But we've transformed so many partnerships.
Unknown Speaker
I mean, it's so interesting, one of the things that's so fascinating to me, so I work with couples mostly now and there's something I'm so awesome about that, because I am endlessly curious. And it's fascinating because oftentimes I start the conversation, and I sit back, and I allow them to actually talk about things they've never talked before. So, you know, one of the questions is, well, what, how am I going? What am I going to see to know that you are enjoying yourself? Right? And I had a couple not too long ago, and I was, you know, we were talking about this. And she's like, oh, you know, I'm gonna close my eyes and sit back, right? And for him, like they put together for 15 years or something. And he was like, when you do that, I thought that you weren't interested anymore.
Unknown Speaker
Oh, wow. That changed her whole relationship, that one sentence.
Unknown Speaker
Seriously, you know, and for him, like, it was so important to be able to see her and have her look at him and everything else. And that was, and for her, it was like, that was a revelation. It was like, oh, so basically, we did this exercise where we basically had them kind of go back. And fourth, we set a timer for two and a half minutes. And so every time the timer went off, like, depending so he would start and, you know, she would go into her, she would close her eyes for a while, and he would touch her. And then the timer would go off, and she would open her eyes, and she would touch him for a while. And then the timer would go off. And then she'd be allowed to close your eyes. And you would touch her for a while. And so it was just this really interesting back and forth that they got to play with. And what they really got was that a nothing was wrong. Right? Like he wasn't checking out, or she wasn't checking out. He wasn't, you know, his, his his need or desire for more of her was not like feeling overwhelming, because she was allowed some of her own. You know, she was allowed to have her style, he was allowed to have his style. Anyway, I digress. There you go.
Unknown Speaker
That was great. That was great. That was a good example of the communication piece. It's, I know, in my own relationships, my first husband, I had a conversation a number of years after we're divorced, because I have the unique skill in staying with friends with most exes. And all of a sudden, like all this stuff that had happened between us. It was like, oh, when you said that you meant this. And oh, that's what you were actually feeling when you walked out the door and nothing to do. And like that repaired our whole friendship, that one conversation and I don't even remember the details. But I can remember the energy of the revelation, I could picture where I was sitting, you know, when we were on the phone, having this conversation and that repaired, and we're good friends still, you know, we talk every now and then and stay in touch. But it is that kind of it's it's it's revelatory. When that happens. It's like, yeah, oh, that's what you meant. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker
And even just like, like, it's fascinating, like, we'll have conversations. And I'll, you know, I'll watch my Congress, my clients have conversations, and, you know, completely miss what each other is saying. And so, you know, I have, I have some guests who do an excellent, excellent job of this, of working with a diamond with this dynamic, which is basically like, listening to your partner asking, you know, replying back to them as to what it is they just said, and asking them if they got that, right. And if they didn't get that right, then making a few adjustments, if they did get that right, then moving the conversation forward. And it's, it's really interesting, like, how much that will change things. You know, and my, so, I, one of the advantages, I have been in a relationship for so long and being in relationship to this particular person. You know, I I like to say that, in the beginning, I got together with him because he had a solid No, and I really needed that, like, I am a bit of, you know, I'm a bit and, and I'm passionate and it's really easy to get people on my ride when I get passionate and excited. But he had such solid know that I could come up against that. And, you know, it's been a lifelong challenge of like, well, where do we meet each other and how do we meet each other? We have very, very different Practice is in the world. He is a martial artist. And, you know, just an artist and an artist. So his practices are very different than mine. So it's been finding the overlap and getting to bring home all of these different things that I've learned to see how they work with him.
Unknown Speaker
I want to there's one of my favorites that you've used, which is, I don't know if you still do it, but how you would write notes? Hmm.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah. A little. Sure. So I'm, I'm a big believer in the love languages, in part because
Unknown Speaker
you could put info to love languages, we're not going to get into discussion, but you could put that in the show notes. So people want to know what
Unknown Speaker
oh, yeah, yeah. Okay. But she's talking. Thank you. So, so basically, we have very different love languages. He likes to be, you know, he's his words of affirmation. So he likes to, he needs to hear how much I appreciate and love. And I'm turned on by and, you know, all of these things need to be verbal. I am, we're our acts of service, which is all about show me. Right, show me how to how, how you love me. And so back in the day, I used to bring him a cup of chai every morning. And for me, this was my version of telling him I loved him and wanted him to have a good day. And it was my blessings. And it was just like, it was a deal. Like, there was a whole
Unknown Speaker
ritual, were speaking your love language to him, I was speaking
Unknown Speaker
my love language to him, and he was receiving a cup of tea, right. And so I would get completely blown out because I wasn't being received. And he would look at me like, what's going on woman like, you're petite. But then when I realized, like, Oh, this is what he needs, you know, I started incorporating that. And I am not great at telling people because, you know, I like to be shown. So I actually went and Reese did a little bit of research. And one of the ways that I really like to tell him, I love him and remind him and whatnot is I'll put notes everywhere. And you know, every once in a while a note will fall out of like, a drawer or something. And it's just, it just but it was so it shifted things around so much for us. And like for instance, now, when he takes the trash out, he lets me know that he's going to take the trash out. And I get to tell him how much you know, I think it's sexy and fabulous. And it's kind of a thing between us now.
Unknown Speaker
Well, I recall too, there was a time where you would write him a note. But then you would also list something, you'd, you'd let him know what how to show you love and return.
Unknown Speaker
Right. So on the front, it would say, you know how much I you know, appreciated him and everything he did, and the way he was and the way he was showing up. And then on the back, there'd be a list of three things that needed to be done around the house or, you know, that needed to be done. Power of
Unknown Speaker
communication and really doing the work on relationship communication.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, yeah. And it's funny because it's like, um, it's really funny that you mentioned that because it's like, we have become together list makers, which I on my own, I'm not a list maker he on his own is not a list maker. But together, we put together a list so that things get done and be I can feel left.
Unknown Speaker
That's just eating nuts this week. So, um, we've talked about so many different things, on so many different topics, we could go on and on forever. But we do have to end this podcast at some point. So just a reminder to listeners that Deborah's got the better sex for couples Summit coming up. And the link is in the show notes, and it's better sex for couples, summit.com and all these topics that we talked about today. She goes deep into and one of the things I love that you got to hear in this conversation is how whether it's Tantra, or other kinds of sex or kink or missionary style, or that relationship and communication like all these things, Deborah has this unique way having studied and taught and dive deep into all these different topics, to see how they all relate to each other and teach each other and just like she was talking about on how the communication that happens in a kink scene can actually teach you how to relate how to communicate in your relationship in general. And there's, I mean, I've just known Deborah a really long time. And I see all these ways that it all weaves together. And she takes all the lessons from these seemingly separate places and carries them through to the other places. And that's really, I think, what she's bringing together in this summit, and in all the work that she does with her clients, and you got to hear some samples of that. So Deborah, like having talked about all these things, and me just sharing what I see. I'm kind of curious, before we finish here, if there's a last thought or piece of wisdom or something like what do you want listeners to get out of this conversation? We had, except to know that you're the person to ask the questions that blush, but otherwise you like what, you know, what? Walk away from listening to our conversation? Yeah,
Unknown Speaker
I think there are a couple of things. One is that relationships are a unique experience. And they are unique to the two people who are having them. And so, you know, it's a combination of all of the skills that you bring together. And sometimes there are skills that we need some support around. And so really being curious, not just about what goes well, but sometimes what's not going well points to what your next, what's your next experiences about. And so just know that like, there are people who can support you. And that it is that relationships are more complicated than the story but tells us and so they're unique to you, they are an opportunity for personal growth, I think, and you don't have to do them alone. And that, there's, there's always more as possible than you could even imagine. I think that, you know, one of the things I say when I talk about relationships and sex is that, you know, our bodies are these amazing instruments. And it's like, we would never really given any instruction around them. So if we're lucky, we figure out how to play with chopsticks. If we're really lucky, we find somebody else to play the other part of chopsticks. But when we, you know, get to actually play with our bodies, and learn how to do a solo, learn how to do a duet, you know, maybe make it into a quartet. Perhaps even doing the orchestra, like there's so much possibility. But you know, it does start with curiosity, and really wanting to, to be open to what's possible.
Unknown Speaker
I think the essence of who you are and what you stand for, and what you teach and give to people you support is really you're really one of the people I've there's not many people I've ever met, like you in that you there's no right or wrong for you, which is different than right or wrong attached to judgment. And you have this way and that you create this world and space that your clients and your friends and colleagues and everyone around you steps into where you're okay and right, just how you are. And I think it's something so vulnerable with so much stigma and taboo like sex and intimacy and relationship. That's a really important space to hold of Neil, there's no right or wrong. There's what's right for you. Yeah, no judgment around that. So I just want to, I want to give that last acknowledged you about that. Thank you for holding that space, because it creates so much safety for so many people. And thank you for all that you do and for sharing your stories and your insights today. And in this conversation. It was super fun to like throw you on the other side of the mind and ask you the questions. And for our listeners, she had no idea really what I was going to ask her. I didn't tell her ahead of time. So this is true, genuine, straight from the heart, Deborah here. I hope you enjoyed my questions and what she shared. And I don't know Deborah, if you have anything last you want to say
Unknown Speaker
just you know, super appreciate your skill and asking questions. And in helping me to like pinpoint in what I'm up to. And just, you know, I feel so grateful and that you're such a glorious friend. And so it's Yeah, and again, I really I truly believe that you know, your support is part of what catalyst and help get the better sex podcast out into the world. So, so thanks.
Unknown Speaker
I'm excited. I'm excited for anyone who's doing podcasts. It's definitely a fun way to share wisdom. Absolutely. Other people.
Unknown Speaker
Absolutely. So I'm gonna take back the mic for just a moment and take it's all yours. Say this has been so much fun. And I'm so happy to have had the opportunity to be interviewed by my dear friend, missy. And for those of you listening, thank you so much for joining us on this journey on this conversation. There are going to be so many more interesting conversations. Again, if you have questions or comments, please let me know. Let us know. You can find us at Deborah Tantra cat@gmail.com, in the show notes, and a big invitation and welcome to join the better sex, better sex for couples Summit. And again, in the show notes. This is Deborah Kat, the better sex podcast saying thank you so much for joining the conversation. Please like, subscribe and comment. And we'll see you on the next conversation. Thank you so much.