Chinese Philosophy and Female Pleasure with Shay Sun

In this episode I talk with Happiness Empowerment and Couples Intimacy Coach, Shay Sun.  Shay tells us about their journey with understanding the changing nature of relationships over time.  He shares about his exploration into Chinese Philosophy and its wisdom for the constant change of relationship as well the secrets it reveals about feminine pleasure .  In this conversation, we talk about strong women, creating desire, Tantra Speed Date, and the communication needed between a couple for great sex and deeper intimacy. We also chat about shutdown and resentment between couples and some tips for healing that divide by coming back to communication.

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Linktree https://linktr.ee/shaytimothysun

Website http://www.shaysun.com/

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In our commitment accessibility, help make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who like to read rather than listen to podcasts. The transcription is far from perfect, and in some cases quite amusing. As we grow edited transcripts are on the list in the meantime please enjoy.

Deborah [00:00:03]:

Okay. Where did my notes go? Welcome to the better sex podcast. My name is Deborah Kat and I am your shameless host. This is the Better Sex podcast, where we have unfiltered conversations about sex and relationship, us about the many different possibilities there are for sex and relationships. We are hoping these conversations help you figure out what works for you so that you can have better sex on your terms. I truly believe that a sexy world creates a happier and a healthier and a safer world. If you want to do your part in creating a sexy world, please hit like subscribe and leave a comment. Today.

Deborah [00:00:59]:

My guest is Shay Sun. As a couple's coach for Committed intimacy with diverse background in professional coaching for over a decade, shay envisions a world of greater intimacy. Employing a blend of Chinese philosophy, modern neuroscience and positive psychology, he coaches committed couples on the interplay between sex drive, romantic love and healthy attachment. By offering these insights, Shay hopes to counteract the loneliness from sexlessness in relationships, steering partners towards healthier, more meaningful, lasting connections. I love that. And just so you know, Shay is definitely somebody new to my world. We've been sort of circling around for about a year now and so I am thrilled to actually get to have conversation with you. So tell me Shay, how did you get here? Why sex and relationship?

Shay Sun [00:02:06]:

Well, first of all, I want to say thank you, Deborah, for that beautiful introduction and also just your mission in the world for this podcast so resonates with. Obviously, you know, we all are here as human beings because our parents had sex. So in terms of that piece but I think for a lot of people, they may have gone through a curiosity state about sex and attraction or anything related to that, birds and the bees. And I think for people like me, I was one of those kids who would grab a dictionary and turn to sex related words or the encyclopedia or anything like that. So I think there's just been this natural curiosity that I had ever since I was a child that just never left. And I think as I continued to grow through my teenage years, I would often challenge what's going on with me with my fascination with love, sex, relationships, romance and things like that. And then of course, as I started having relationships and long term ones and things like that, I started realizing just how important it was for me. There are certain people that pair bonding is really important to, and I'm definitely one of those people.

Shay Sun [00:03:21]:

And I think because I give off that natural energy, so many, especially women. Oh my goodness, the number of conversations. Even when I was like in 7th grade, I remember girls coming to me and wanting to talk to me about their boyfriends and then they would say like, you would make a good therapist, a good psychologist, and so I think that's always been on my mind. But I think as I went through over two decades of a marriage and then talking to divorced women and then just thinking in terms of my own life, sex is super important for me. It's part of survival. Like I mentioned before, we as a species, human species, need to procreate but also to thrive. I think sex is the glue and I think sex is not just one part of our brain. I think there's multiple.

Shay Sun [00:04:14]:

And I think for me personally, I think there's probably nothing more beautiful. And I use the word beautiful almost like an art form. There's almost anything more beautiful than kind of like the ying and the yang coming together.

Deborah [00:04:28]:

I love that. So a couple of things before we jump in. You mentioned the phrase pair bonding. I think I know what you mean by that, but I just want to be really clear and have you just kind of talk a little bit. What does pair bonding mean to you?

Shay Sun [00:04:50]:

Yeah, so I have a master's in intercultural studies. So from a cultural multicultural perspective, throughout time, typically human beings have pair bonded. And the reason they pair bonded is because of the fact that when you're standing upright, it's really hard to carry like a 20 pound human being for like four years and gather food and then also fight off predators. So that's why the woman's like, it's kind of nice to have a guy who has another pair of arms to be able to protect and to provide. So because of that, from an evolutionary perspective, I think there is a place for that. Now, having said that, because that of course, is more of a monogamous way of thinking about things or even serial monogamy, I do also think the fact that when it comes to outside of the marriage, sex is also a part of natural what has happened in human history as well. So I acknowledge that. And there's also we have seen multiple wives in very few cases, also multiple husbands.

Shay Sun [00:05:57]:

For me, in terms of pair bonding, there's three systems in our brain sex drive, which raises testosterone. So when you think about that, that's more like almost like a hunter mindset, right? I'm a man, so I'm going after and seeing which females I can kind of spread my seed to. Right. So then after that, the other system would be the system of romantic love. Right. And that kind of hones in on that individual that I really am attracted to. And so then once you have that almost like obsessiveness about that one individual cord, they become the center of the world. Then after that, there is the attachment piece that happens.

Shay Sun [00:06:38]:

And so when we're attached to someone, then I think biology makes it so that way we want to be attached at least for the woman, at least probably for four years. So that way we can raise that young offspring who can't survive on their own. So I think there's an anthropological reason for pair bonding, and really, I think it's for the survival of the young as human beings versus, like, other animal kingdoms, where, like, a giraffe will plop out, give birth to a giraffe, kick it into the ass, and then it needs to start running away from the lion. That's not how it works for us as human beings.

Deborah [00:07:11]:

Right, well, and it's just so interesting because it's like modern day now. It's like we've got extended families, and we've got blended families, and so we do have the original pair. And hopefully, although this isn't always true, there's more support from from different parts of the family. And even if you're really lucky, you've got a great co parent or co parents to help support that. And I love what you were saying about just the different sort of stages. Know, there's the sort of more hormonal pairing, there's the romantic pairing, and know there's more of the universal pairing, if you will. And it makes me think about what astaire Perel was saying, about what it is, modern relationships, what our expectations are in modern relationships. And I'm just curious I see you shaking your head there for those that can't see him.

Deborah [00:08:22]:

So I'm kind of curious what you're thinking there.

Shay Sun [00:08:25]:

Yeah, I love Esther Perel. I do. I have a few of her books. And I think what's really interesting about Esther Perel is the fact that she acknowledges the fact that in order for desire to happen, there needs to be distance. That is probably one of my greatest takeaways from her. And the way that I think about it is, when you think in terms of a relationship, a relationship is made up of actually three entities, not just two. There's you, me, and the third entity is the relationship. And I believe the fact that when two people if you think about a Ven diagram, if you have two dots that are literally laying on top of each other, then there actually is no it literally is just one circle.

Shay Sun [00:09:12]:

Right. So I think that to create desire, you need some distance. And that distance is really about, like, I have my own identity, you have your own identity, and I can appreciate you from afar. So I think that's the reason why, when it comes to relationships, I absolutely do not agree that you need to know the person through and through, because it kills mystery. I think a more humble and less ego way of looking at relationship is at my very best. I can be with you for 50, 60 years, and there will always be a 20% mystery. Another way of thinking about it is, like, within the ying and the yang, there's, like, these dots within the two dots in the symbol leave room for that mystery. So that way, you're always open and curious and wondering, why are they doing that right? Instead of just automatically being able to predict what they're going to do.

Shay Sun [00:10:11]:

Because with familiarity, then I think it does kind of breed lack of effort, I think, boredom and all those types of things. So, yeah, I love Esther's work.

Deborah [00:10:25]:

Well, yeah, and just it's funny, as you were saying that, because I'm a big believer in the third. Like you were saying that thing that gets created. And what's so fascinating to me is that so often people don't actually wait to see what the third is. They're like, OOH, you're masculine bodied, I'm feminine bodied. We're going to come together. And that means it's going to be this kind of romance relationship, or maybe that's what I'm seeking. So I'm going to say that's what I want from it. When we actually step back and give the third some time to develop, it might be that we're not meant to be romantic, we're meant to be friends, we're meant to be business partners.

Deborah [00:11:12]:

There's a whole host of different possibility. And I think that also kind of leads to what you're talking about of the mystery piece. Because it's like my experience in relationship with my partner, who I've been with for over 20 years, is that we've gone through all those different rotations. And sometimes what needs to happen in the third is that we actually do need a little bit of space, you know, or we're becoming closer and we're learning how to garden. So that's a whole different version of what the relationship is. But allowing that third to have not exactly a life of its own, but a life of its own is really important. So I agree with you there.

Shay Sun [00:12:03]:

Yeah, I agree. So when he's talking about, like, dot to dot or drawing, if you have two dots and you draw a line, well, that line could be a straight line, it could be a squiggly line, it could be a zigzag. Right? But it's co creating that. It's co creating that line. And what is it that you're actually giving to that line? Because I think sometimes when it comes to relationships, it's easy to want to kind of almost pull from that other person. But I think in a real relationship, it's actually less about pulling from the person, but really more depositing towards the relationship, because then you're both working towards a goal I firmly believe in. Like, I think it's gottman john gottman dr john Gottman's work about shared meaning, right? Like, create shared meaning. What is the shared meaning? What are the common rituals or roles or values? What is it that we want? And I think that intentionality is then what creates that relationship.

Shay Sun [00:13:01]:

So it's not like you just absolutely trip and fall into the other person's genitals and be like, oh, my gosh, I guess we hair bonded at that point. Really? Is it's a lot of more of the hormonal piece that we're attached to. Right? But then of course, life is not just you can't just live your life in bed 24/7. Right? There's life outside of that. There's other commitments and there's other things in life. And so then to know how to navigate those as well takes intention.

Deborah [00:13:32]:

Yeah, absolutely. And so what I'm hearing you say is it's like there's the part of the relationship that is the biological hormonal piece, but then there is the part where we make shared meaning. So tell me what you mean by shared meaning.

Shay Sun [00:13:53]:

Yeah. So we as human beings, our brains are meaning making machines, right? And that's based off associations. And so when you find that special person, that person takes on a special meaning and your relationship takes on a special meaning. Special in this case with there's that word that we use in English, holiday. Right? And holiday is actually broken into two parts. And I was an English major, which is actually holy days. Well, then the question is what does the word holy mean? And a lot of times we think of holy meaning something like spiritual and things like that or religious. But holy actually just means set apart.

Shay Sun [00:14:32]:

That's all that it means. It's something that is set apart for a specific function. So, like, most people probably wouldn't eat out of a hospital. What is that called? A urinal pan. Right? You know what I'm talking about? No matter how clean it is, your brain would be like, no, that's for shitting in. That is not a plate. Right? Because psychologically you have that association. In the same way, when it comes to shared meaning, I believe it's an issue of saying like, there are certain things within this relationship that makes special, that makes it different.

Shay Sun [00:15:08]:

Again, from an anthrological perspective, when you're talking about even things like marriage. What is marriage? Well, in the old days, marriage really was about sexual access and who children gets passed on the possessions, right? It's about who's your heir. Right? Literally, that's what it was about. So that way not everyone is if you are screwing with people, right? If you're having sex and an offspring is produced, then who's responsible for that kid and how much of that kid is going to get your shit, basically, right? So I think in that context, that's part of that shared meaning. What does this mean? What does our relationship mean in the context of even us? But then how does the rest of the world also relate to us?

Deborah [00:15:52]:

Thank you. I love that. And there's so many different ways and meanings that we can make a relationship, right? Like what you were saying earlier about for marriage originated as a way to claim offspring, to establish a line of inheritance. It was, and still can be, incredibly about the capitalistic piece of like and I like to say when I work with clients, it's like, well, what are you doing with this relationship? Are you consolidating and accumulating wealth? Are you creating offspring? Are you creating companionship? There's all of these different flavors that a relationship can take and none of them are necessarily bad or wrong. We were talking a little bit about this before we hit play, but relationships can look so many different ways and it's really about what gets created in the third. And that's just such a great bringing that back there. So I'm actually going to take a leap because one of the things that I'm really curious about in your bio is how does Chinese philosophy see sexuality and relationships in a way that may or may not be different from non Chinese philosophy?

Shay Sun [00:17:28]:

Oh, Deborah, I love you. Thank you for asking that question. Oh, my gosh. There's some Chinese texts that were lost for about 900 years. And these texts are extremely ancient and they were really about the early sexologists. Like some people say the original sexologists are the ancient Chinese, they were the ancient Taoists. And when you look at some of these texts, the way they express actually it's funny. They express it actually in dialogue form.

Shay Sun [00:18:07]:

It's like the Yellow Emperor speaking to his three tutors. And his three tutors are the three females that are like the superstars when it comes to the Chinese believe the fact that the women are the holders of sexual wisdom. And so he would ask them questions and then they would respond. And what's really unique about the Chinese way of looking at sex is that sex was seen as energy, exchange, longevity, health. But the coolest thing about Chinese way of thinking about sex is the fact that it's very harmonious. So Chinese cosmology actually begins with sex, like when it comes to Ying and Yang. So in the very beginning was the Tai Chi or the supreme ultimate with basically nothing in this. And then from that, Yang came out.

Shay Sun [00:18:59]:

So the way I like to think about it is it is the big bang. Yang is assertive energy. So Yang is going, going there's that blast of energy and then it stops. And the Chinese believe that's where Yin is created, yin is a place of rest. So Ying and Yang made it and the Tao was created. And the Tao then creates the 10,000 things, which is the 10,000 manifestations, or is everything that we see around us basically it's just everything. So Chinese thinking to get this straight.

Deborah [00:19:33]:

So it sounds like there's a big orgasm.

Shay Sun [00:19:36]:

Yes.

Deborah [00:19:37]:

And that's the Yang, the doing, the creating. And then there was the knack afterwards. So the Yin came into being. I actually don't know that much about Taoist philosophy other than I know that it has a lot to do with, as you said, longevity and energy and qi and choosing whether to allow orgasm or climax or whether to recirculate the energy.

Shay Sun [00:20:15]:

Yes.

Deborah [00:20:17]:

I'm definitely learning as we go along here.

Shay Sun [00:20:20]:

Well, the really interesting thing about it is when you look at the text and I've shared these texts with both Asians and non Asians. And the interesting thing about it is there is so much focus on female pleasure that is probably thing that stands out the most to everyone. Like there is an intentional preparing of the woman's body and a holding back of ejaculation to make sure that the woman is pleased. So there's a text where they don't use the word sex battle, but it's almost like that. And they're basically in one of those Chinese gardens, you know what I'm talking about, in the center of four buildings, and they're going at it for like 2 hours. And literally the woman's like, oh my gosh, I came, I've lost. So I think there's a very big difference in terms of the way that maybe mainstream western world thinks about sex is erection, sex is ejaculation, sex is that money shot. And sex is very male oriented.

Shay Sun [00:21:22]:

When you look at the Chinese Taoist way of looking at it, it doesn't feel that way. It feels really a lot more balanced and even so leaning more towards the female. And because if you look at the ancient Chinese civilization, really the Forbidden Palace, if you're familiar with the Forbidden Palace in Beijing where the Emperor lived, it really was a giant sex lab, right? Basically in terms of the harem and things like that. And what the eunuchs would do is they would go ahead and they would take notes. They would take notes on the number of thrusts. They would take notes of timing, they would take notes on angles. I mean, the Chinese were very nerdy. They were geeking out, but they were doing it because of longevity.

Shay Sun [00:22:07]:

Also because they wanted to make sure there was an error so everything was meticulously taken. So when you look at it from that perspective, just like is modern science, we do like observation, we create hypothesis, we do some experiments. Well, the Chinese had been doing did that for the longest time. And so when we now go back to those ancient Chinese texts, I believe the fact that, yes, the winner is the relationship, of course, ultimately, but a big ass winner is actually women. Because women often are the ones who have told me that their sex lives are often not exactly what they wish, that the man is lacking some techniques. And I think that the Chinese texts offer a lot for us. I think more women would smile if more men would actually read those texts.

Deborah [00:22:56]:

Well, now I'm super curious. I'm curious about your practice. So what do you see most? Like what's something that's really common that you see in your practice? What do people come to talk to you about?

Shay Sun [00:23:11]:

Yeah, so it's interesting because I remember one of the very first conversations, a woman said to me, I really want more orgasms. Right? But that's not where the conversation went. The conversation went to communication. And that is kind of like what I kind of just started to realize more and more and more that communication actually is the main issue when it comes to sex. Because let's say the fact that you are super proficient, like five star rating on your performance, but yet you can't perform that because it's all intellectual knowledge, because the actual performance in real time with your partner, you're able either not to be able to express that or they're not open and like these types of things. So I think when it comes to the sexiest thing that you can do with your partner is nurture that open, honest dialogue where you know your needs, they know their needs. And the fact that you can express that in a way when it gets uncomfortable or messy and feelings get involved, I honestly think that's the key to it all.

Deborah [00:24:21]:

It sounds like basically the thing that people come to you most for is how to communicate about what they want.

Shay Sun [00:24:29]:

Yeah. So in terms of a shared vision, right. What is our shared vision? Is sex important to us? Is romance important to us? What is important to us? And when I say importance, it really is, again, a spectrum. So I talked a lot about the anthropological piece in terms of pair bonding. Right. What does pair bonding look like? For some? Pair bonding could look like super asexual. Right? A woman told me that she live in two different houses and they get together every once in a while. But they're like my soulmate.

Shay Sun [00:25:01]:

That is a whole different way of looking at what a pair bond would then look like in my eyes. On the other extreme, I think a pair bonding could be that you and me are the primary relationships and then of course, we can have an open relationship and sleep with other people and so forth. So there is that kind of pair bond as well, right. Where it's just almost like a hierarchy of priorities. So I think in terms of knowing what are your desires, what is our vision for our relationship, what is it that we want? Typically what happens is the fact that there is a desire gap where one person wants more than the other and when one person wants more than the other and that usually falls into two categories, frequency and quality. So then how do you navigate that?

Deborah [00:25:48]:

Because what happens I'm so glad that you brought that up because that is definitely something that I see a lot is that you have the desire gap. And I love that you put it so succinctly in terms of frequency or quality. So somebody comes to you, they're like one of the things I see a lot is somebody will come forward and they're like, I want more sex. So where do you go with that?

Shay Sun [00:26:22]:

Yeah. So for me, there is a specific flavor in conversations. So let's say that you and I are having a conversation right now. You and I having a conversation, we can have a certain amount of intimacy and vulnerability in the way we talk. Your husband or your partner was to come into it's going to now change the dynamic because now there is a witness to our conversation.

Deborah [00:26:49]:

Right.

Shay Sun [00:26:50]:

So I think there's something distinct. Like even with the client I'm meeting with later on this week, I've asked for let's do an individual time with me. Let's have some individual time for me to both and then come together. Because you really want to hear what's on people's hearts, right? And sometimes people are afraid to say it out loud. Right. So I've heard women's wives say to me, like, my husband won't go down on me and that's a need of mine. But to either say that again in a way that's going to be received, well, that's the part that then you almost need a mediator for it sometimes, right?

Deborah [00:27:32]:

And that's because she feels like she said it over and over again and hasn't been heard or is nervous to say it, or is afraid that if she does say it, she's going to get something back about that shuts her down around it.

Shay Sun [00:27:52]:

Yeah. I think some of it deals with I hate saying this, but like male ego, right? Women want to not I mean, this is broad stroke, super generalization, but women typically don't want to hurt other people's feelings more so than men. Right. And so because of that, I think anytime you say something in relation to about a man's performance, because men are oftentimes more performance oriented, women are afraid the fact that they're going to hurt that because that fragile ego, then they're not sure how that's going to play out. So because men don't understand what is her name? Dr. Emily. She wrote the book. Come as you are.

Shay Sun [00:28:32]:

Are you familiar with that?

Deborah [00:28:33]:

Nagowski.

Shay Sun [00:28:34]:

Nagowski, yes. Well, she says, the fact that we all have the same sexual organs just organized differently, I honestly think that something that all men need to understand is that the tip of the clitoris is the head of the penis. If they can get that drilled into their brain, they'll have a brand new appreciation for the tip of the clit. Right. Men are they like their diagrams, they like their analysis. But men need to know that. That way they can understand that in terms of the sensitivity of penetration and what is actually doing in women, the number of them that can have orgasms both internally vaginally or also clitorally, all of those things are things that men ought to know. And I think that, yes, the women can encourage that conversation, but how do they do it when they maybe have already been having sex for the longest time? And then to be able to say, by the way, I know that we've been together for three years or two years, but let me teach you how to hit a home run, because all I've been doing is getting to first base.

Deborah [00:29:47]:

Well, and I think that is a very typical conversation of like the first 18 months it was on and it was awesome. And what may or may not have been an orgasm was just fine. Because the reason that we're having sex in those 1st 18 months is as much to establish that bond and that connection as it is for the pleasure. Right. At least that's my understanding. But then to be able to have that nuanced conversation of like and I'd like it a little bit different than in the beginning, but the truth of the matter is, at least from my experience is like, you know, we can do the same thing for months and then all of a sudden I need something completely different. That's just what my body needs. And I think it's you know, I've I've definitely heard from other women, other, you know, female bodied folk that's typical, where it's like for whatever reason something changes, whether it's hormonal, whether it's mind or whatever.

Deborah [00:31:05]:

And I don't see that so much with male bodies. It just seems like although is that actually accurate? That may actually not be you're shaking your head. That's not accurate too.

Shay Sun [00:31:22]:

Yeah, they do want variety too. But I think this if we step back from the sexual, I actually think it's actually more of our brains and specifically our prefrontal cortex and needing stimulation. So when we fall into boredom, our brain hates to be bored. And that could be like we just take things for granted. For example, like two months ago, I was struggling with COVID right? And what COVID did for me is made me really appreciate when I'm healthy because I take for granted the fact that I'm healthy. Right. In the same way that you're like, oh my gosh, I'm really, really wanting X, Y and Z. It could be a burger or a cheesecake or whatever.

Shay Sun [00:32:02]:

But then once you have it, then if you were to eat it all the time, you're going to start losing that desire. Or if you're like, I really want this job, or I really want this new car. But then that new car smell fades. So I think part of happiness when it comes to either your own personal happiness and also partnership happiness, is the fact that you have to monitor I think they call it the hedonic, the word hedonistic, right? I think it's called the Hedonic treadmill. And that just means the fact that you get to this point where the novelty wears off. I think having Zen Buddhist beginner's mind is huge. Really go back to those role play, those moments where everything is new. Right? Let's role play tonight that we're in our early 20s, we just met at, I don't know, some college function and literally you're a virgin and I am too, or whatever.

Shay Sun [00:33:03]:

And let's put our minds back there because ultimately your. Greatest sex organ is actually your brain. It goes again back to the idea of it's a meaning making machine. So make that meaning make that meaning go back to some of those role play, some of those things. Make it exciting again.

Deborah [00:33:22]:

Well, it's so funny because hearing you say that just reminds me that I lead this event called Tantra Speed Date, and I started doing that about five years ago, and I had no idea how flat my sex and relationship had been with my partner until I started doing the Speed Date, because here I am. I'd be leading people through these amazing experiences of connection to self, to others, getting all turned on, all juiced up, and then I would come home, and I would put that attention on him. And the thing is that when I was turned on and when I was really in my body and then I put that attention on him, he responded. And it was kind of like I always say that it saved my relationship because it really brought the juice back, and it brought the juice back in a way that I didn't even realize that it was missing. And so it's like, I love what you're saying about going back and finding that and role playing it and really just allowing for the truth of sometimes we need some variety. Sometimes we need some support to bring that excitement back and also just to realize that we have these waves, we have these valleys, and that coming back to our partners, coming back to the third. It's like, what does it want? What does it need?

Shay Sun [00:35:05]:

Yeah, go ahead. No, I think part of that is great to understanding the fact that we as human beings are constantly changing and evolving. So a great metaphor would be this a caterpillar is having sex with a caterpillar, right? It's committed to this caterpillar. Well, if the caterpillar suddenly wakes up one day and they're like, why am I with the butterfly? What happened then? You know, the fact that there's some negotiation that needs to happen, the butterfly is going to be like saying, like, you know what? I just went through this amazing know, I really want to continue this with you, and I'm willing to be patient as you go through the chrysalis stage. So I think part of it is the fact that in Chinese philosophy, like the Yi Ching, if you're familiar with the Qing, the Book of Changes, even Taoism in general understands that there are four seasons, understands that change is constant. So you're always renewing yourself and the relationship, which means that as you go through different stages of your life, both physiologically, your body's changing, things in the world are changing. You got to update the firmware. You got to continue letting the other person know what are your core values? And if there is a reorganization of those core values, you need to keep them updated, because let's say the fact that sex is like number one, but over time, maybe sex is number two, or maybe it's number three, but you don't let your partner know that.

Shay Sun [00:36:37]:

Well, guess what? Your partner is going to feel that they're going to feel. And they may interpret the pulling away as them not being desirable or not being a priority. This goes back to what I was saying before about communication. Communication is not just being like, just saying what I need to say so that way we can resolve some conflict. But it really is like, hey, this is who I am. You're constantly getting to know the other person because that other person is constantly becoming someone slightly different than before.

Deborah [00:37:12]:

I have an OD question. I'm not exactly sure how to frame it.

Shay Sun [00:37:16]:

Okay.

Deborah [00:37:19]:

In a typically so if I were coming to a marriage from a Chinese philosophy, how might it be different from an American philosophy? Does that make sense?

Shay Sun [00:37:37]:

Are you talking about sex wise or the whole relationship wise? Because what are you thinking?

Deborah [00:37:44]:

Well, you said something and it just made me realize that I'm not exactly sure I know what the different philosophy would be towards union, towards marriage from the Chinese philosophy versus from an American philosophy.

Shay Sun [00:37:58]:

Yeah. So I can do some broad strokes for yeah, super broad strokes would be when I say, you know, when I'm mentoring these, a lot of these do come from ancient China, right? Things have changed over time. If you're talking about mainland communist China today, there's going to be some different flavors. But if you're talking in terms of continuous thread across Chinese culture, I would say the fact that it does become more traditional values. Right. And when I see traditional values, I'm really talking about traditional roles. Okay, so traditional roles is like the man has protective provider role and the female has more of a nurturing role. But part of that, I think, is because it's a collectivist mindset.

Shay Sun [00:38:40]:

Right. And then also because the fact that if you look from a confucius way of thinking, it's not about this individualistic idea of happiness. It's really about communal happiness. It's knowing the fact that your happiness within the relationship, outside your relationship has a direct impact on your own personal happiness within yourself and within your family. So there is that group orientation mentality. So that's the reason why having harmonious relationships is so important. Having said that, when those harmonious relationships become fonding or folding or where you're not actually being authentic with your needs and wants, that's where a Western perspective is a lot more helpful, because the Western perspective can then bring out some of that authenticity that we need. So that's why for me, it's really about the best of both worlds.

Shay Sun [00:39:35]:

I'm bicultural. I'm authentic ethnically Chinese, but I was raised in the States since I was two years old, right? So I've been here for, what, 47 or six years for me. It's really about pooling, what is the essence, what is the essence of it, and for the essence of it. This is what I would say, and this is what I say to my clients as well. What Chinese philosophy offers us is there is something to be said about clear roles. The yang is the leader, the yin is the follower. But it does not mean the fact that you're always leading and always following, because there is a place where one person might be better in an area. Now, having said that, because I know the fact that it's easy to get super PC, right, super like everyone is different and things like that.

Shay Sun [00:40:26]:

But again, broad strokes. I laugh because I've heard this so many times from women, especially strong women, women that are super strong, that are empowered, that are badass, that have their shit together in the world. Those women tell me that they're tired of being amazing, that they're tired of having to clean up everything that's on their plate. And so because of that, they at least want that in their intimate relationship, especially in the bedroom, where they don't have to be, that they're yang so much of the time that they want to actually lean into the yin. And that is the reason why I think 50 Shades of Gray did so well, because so many strong women wanted someone else to make some decisions in the bedroom. And when I talk to so many divorced women who tell me about what is it they want now, 80, 90% of them would all say the fact that when it comes to the bedroom, I want a man who will take charge, nobody wants and be gentle and kind and make it mind blowing. Because I think that that idea of that assertive leader is what's actually what a lot of women are missing in their lives. They don't want to have to take care of everything.

Shay Sun [00:41:56]:

They want a man to take charge. Sometimes they want some of that traditional male role, sometimes not in every areas and not, of course, in the toxic way, but man, that turns the shit on. Women get so turned on in all areas of their life when they feel like they can trust a man.

Deborah [00:42:13]:

I would agree with you up until well, actually, I'd agree with you over pretty much over that. But what I would say is that for me, anyway, highly masculine men are awesome in the bedroom, but, man, they get tedious outside. And what I'm thinking of specifically is, like, back in the day before GPS, there was the joke about the man who isn't going to ask for directions. And I've been the person who sat in the car while we drove around and around in circles because we weren't going to ask for directions. So I will lead with that. But, yes, I do think that you're absolutely right. There's a lot of desire for surrender and I think that when I say surrender, I'm meaning something that it's like, yes, we're surrendering to our partners, but we're always surrendering to something bigger. And I think that's the place where sex gets amazing is it's like when and it's not that it always has to be a holiday or something that is beyond the norm, but that's awfully nice when it is.

Deborah [00:43:31]:

That and the ability to allow our partners, whatever version they are, to show up. And sometimes sex doesn't look like penetration. Sometimes sex just looks like, I'm going to hold you, I'm going to cuddle with you, I'm going to penetrate, but we're going to have penetration, but we're not going to move. We're going to turn all the lights on. We're going to turn all the lights off. Like, there's so many different ways to have sex. And I know that you're shaking your head, which is awesome, but also I wanted to kind of bring in the idea that we were talking about of how important sex is, not just for the couple, but beyond. And I know that's something that you're super passionate about.

Deborah [00:44:29]:

So I want to make sure that you get a chance to talk a little bit about climate change. Sex for humanity.

Shay Sun [00:44:39]:

Thank you. Yeah, I've been looking at relationships, dating relationships, sexless marriages. When you look at countries, think in terms of what's been going on since COVID I had this maybe naive or over optimistic idea that when we went into quarantine, that a lot of people would be having sex and we would have all these COVID babies that came out of that time period. And instead you found the fact that there's a lot of people, that the therapists, the couple's therapists, were actually having a difficult time because they couldn't see everybody. I think people got on each other's nerves and all the shit that they got buried underneath the carpet or rug has now come to the surface. So when I started getting really curious about that, I started doing some investigation. And of course, when typically we think about aging population or not having children, you think about like, Japan. Japan is a great example, right? They have a huge aging population.

Shay Sun [00:45:37]:

And you find the fact that a lot of couples aren't even having sex. I don't remember if it's like 58 or 68%. I don't know. The number is quite large and even like, in UK is pretty bad too. But I'm finding that Korea, China, there's so many places right now where people are just either delaying marriage or they're just not even having kids because they can't afford it, because of the economics. So I believe that as a civilization, as a human species, we need to really evaluate what is it that we want. And I believe that the micro shows something about the macro. So if you want there to be harmony across the globe and our planet, then looking at the glue the most basic kind of like, let's look at the little Lego that makes up the bigger Lego design.

Shay Sun [00:46:33]:

I think it does come back to how do we as human beings survive? Well, that comes to babies. And where do babies come from? They come from intimacy. Where does intimacy comes from? It comes from people that are committed to each other and raising of those kids. So then what stops that? Well, currently, student loans stop that. Currently what stops that is inflation stops that. Currently, the fact that men don't want to deal with dating sometimes. Right. And because there is a lot of confusion about is this going to come across as like sexual harassment if I tell a girl that she's beautiful? So I think there's so many societal issues that has contributed to a certain climate that we're having in our world.

Shay Sun [00:47:22]:

So from that dating realm, but then also to go inside the relationship, I think we need to reassess the importance of sexual interaction, sexual activity. And also what you said about Redefining, what is sex? So that sex is not just penetration. I think that sex adds penetration or sex adds male. Ejaculation actually needs to we need a rehaul of that. We need to do like an extreme makeover or a mental remodeling of the mind around that. Because I think that honestly, I think there would be more women with smiles, like I said, if they had oral sex every morning. I honestly believe that. I think if more men got blowjobs, I think women would probably not have as many arguments either.

Shay Sun [00:48:14]:

I think that there are some like it's like the butterfly effect, right? Like if the butterfly just had a blowjob or had orals you're on mute right now.

Deborah [00:48:26]:

I just have to pause you for just a second because I love that, whether it's a masculine or a feminine blowjob butterfly effect. But I think you're right. One of the things I really see with my couples is how much resentment plays in the shutdown of sex. And it's fascinating. I've done this myself, where it's like I'm mad about something that has absolutely nothing to do with the dishes. It's so interesting, but it literally is that kind of thing where it can be feeling like I'm taking on too much of the role of, you know, housekeeper or feeling like, you know, I haven't had enough of my own time, or whatever it is. And that really plays, you know, that starts to become if I don't actually articulate it and communicate to go back to your point, if I don't get to communicate that, and if I don't actually get some result back about it, then that's going to become resentment. And that resentment is going to shut down the sex.

Deborah [00:49:49]:

That resentment is going to I'm going to stop objectifying my partner. Right? It was funny.

Shay Sun [00:49:56]:

We were having I love what you mentioned about the resentment piece. Brene Brown talks about resentment actually has a different flavor to it that actually makes a lot of sense to her. And I've actually had to talk to people about this because I wanted to see the connection. They said it's actually envy. Envy. And I think to a certain extent, I think women actually envy their men, and that's what causes resentment. They envy the fact they have someone who's doing all these things for, like, I really wish that I had someone in my life who was doing all these and taking care of me in all these ways. So I think for the men to understand all that the women are doing for them is important.

Shay Sun [00:50:34]:

John Gray says that of men of Mars women for Venus, he says basically he can boil his, like, 2030 or however many years of marriage counseling into two statements. These are two statements are about what then is the final trigger that initiates the divorce. Right? This nail in the coffin, like the relationship is over. It's when women say, I give and I give and I give and I get nothing in return. That's where the resentment envy comes in, right? The resentment is, I do all these things for you, and then now you're envious of other people that maybe have husbands or boyfriends that do those things. Men, on the other hand, they'll say, no matter what I do, I can't make her happy. Yes. So you take those two.

Shay Sun [00:51:25]:

So, look, if we just make this and we're going to make this super simplified, right? Women make more noise in the bedroom. Women make more noise, give more praise to their men so they know that they're doing a good job. So a performance review in bed is things like, oh, that's a spot. Yes, do that, and then do that outside the bedroom as well. Let the man know the fact that they're doing well, that they're appreciated. And then for women, some of that is either stop doing everything right because you're saying yes to everything. So some things need to be outsourced or pay for once a week, someone to clean the house so you're not doing all the time. And also for the man to take more initiative and plan and put thought into things, because women do that.

Shay Sun [00:52:18]:

Women plan and they take initiative thinking. And what women would like, I believe, is that men act more like themselves when they were first dating, because when men were first dating, they did take the initiative. There was more planning, there was more intention, because there was a goal, there was a purpose. So this goes back to what I said before. When a caterpillar is dating another caterpillar, it has intention. Well, guess what? When the caterpillar becomes a butterfly, then you need to woo that butterfly, because now you're no longer with the caterpillar.

Deborah [00:52:48]:

Oh, my God, that is so good. Yeah. I just want to make sure that everybody gets this right. So for men, you want to continue to woo your caterpillar. Right. And I love what you just said about making sure that the initiative comes out, making because that's so true. That's so true. Yeah.

Deborah [00:53:20]:

So I'm curious, what are you up to these days? What are you passionate about?

Shay Sun [00:53:27]:

Oh, that's such a great question. I mean, in my own personal business, I'm really passionate about getting my voice out there. So couples who because I think there's a lot of need out there, right? As long as there are pair bonding that's going on, I should always have a job or like childcare or like parenting. Right. There are certain things that are just going to be so for me, my passion really is to get this message out that it's okay to not know how to communicate. It's normal to go through these times where you're going to want to have a third party come in and help out with this communication piece. That's super important. So sometimes I think maybe it's an issue of ego in the relationship.

Shay Sun [00:54:17]:

Sometimes it could just be an embarrassment. But I really hope the fact that over time that people become less and less embarrassed in seeking help for that. So the internal piece, I'm excited about that, but I am going to be speaking within like a month and a half from now with a larger organization. And I think it's going to be a broadcast. I think they were at 40 countries, they might be at 80. They're projected maybe 120 questions countries. And for that group, really for me, because the target is 18 to 22 year olds. So for me, my passion regarding that is for them to really see what is your vision for a relationship, what do you really want from that? Right? Going back to all the things I just mentioned in terms of sex drive, romantic love and feelings of attachment.

Shay Sun [00:55:07]:

But then if you were to backwards plan that, right, let's reverse engineer that. When you reverse engineer that, what you really come down to is predating. And what is predating? I believe predating is having that relationship with yourself. And when I say relationship with yourself because that sometimes can get really abstract because now people use that term a lot more, I'm going to break it down even more specific and more nuanced. Your relationship with yourself goes back to conversation and it goes back to what is the conversation you are having with yourself. And I believe even within there, there's a nuance. And the nuance is this have a blend of affirmations. Oftentimes affirmations are an I statement.

Shay Sun [00:55:56]:

Remember I'm an English teacher, right. Ought to be a hybrid of I statements and you statements. And the reason why is because so many of our early traumas come from you statements that were said by a parent or teacher. So we want to program our brain to have a lot of you statements like an imaginary friend would do to you. Right. Or like a persona, have that voice saying things like, you are enough, like you did the best you could and then have the ice part of you respond, I'm loved. So by building that internal relationship with yourself and you build that muscle up when you then get into a relationship and then you're coming to see me when you're in your thirty s forty s or whatever. Now, I'm able to build off of that relationship now I'm building the relationship off of your relationship with yourself and the way you communicate.

Shay Sun [00:56:52]:

His relationship with himself and the way he communicates. And now we're going to have a better chance that we're going to have some common ground.

Deborah [00:57:00]:

So good. Oh, my God. So good.

Shay Sun [00:57:04]:

Why is it so good for you? That was a pretty strong reaction, Deborah.

Deborah [00:57:09]:

Well, I mean, for the whole conversation, to be honest, the whole conversation has been really just so much information.

Shay Sun [00:57:21]:

So.

Deborah [00:57:21]:

Much ease with nuance. Because I think that's a big part that we miss. But just like hearing you say even the piece about you did the best you could and then the I statement coming through is like, oh, I'm worthy, I'm talented. The statement of you are a loving being. It's like, oh, well, the other statement of that is I can love. There's something about that that is just so rich and so just nourishing.

Shay Sun [00:57:58]:

I just got chills all over. By the way, hearing that reflected back. Right. And that's part of this communication. So the fact that you reflected back to what I said, I felt loved. You heard me. I'm not assuming that you heard me. So one of the things that it is my staple in my coaching practice is for the person to repeat back what was said and then end with is that right? Is that right, honey? Right? It might seem super simple, but sometimes when it comes to relationships, it literally is the simplest things.

Shay Sun [00:58:33]:

It's kind of like when we talk about breathing, right? Everyone's like, I know how to breathe, but how many times do you actually take time to breathe to calm down your nervous system? How many times do you actually ask for feedback as to what the other person is saying? So there's clarity so that way you can actually move on and be on the same page.

Deborah [00:58:50]:

Yeah. And I like to say that it's like unless we actually get confirmation that we understand the person, that we don't always know what's going on on the other side of the street, of the fence. So in a moment, I am going to ask you to share a piece of wisdom for those I mean, not that you haven't already shared a shit ton of wisdom, but if you want people to get one thing out of our conversation, I'm going to ask you to share that. I'm also going to ask you to share where we can find you and get more of you. But first, I just want to take a moment and let people know how they can support the Better Sex Podcast. Because, as you can tell, sex is a really complex subject and it can make or break a relationship. And unfortunately, most of us don't get or grow up in an environment where we get to talk about it. And so that's why I created the Better Sex membership.

Deborah [00:59:54]:

It's a place to learn about, to put into action practical tools so that you can become a better lover and increase the pleasure in your relationships. If you're bored or sexually unfulfilled, you can get the support you need. So let's face it, a podcast is not enough. You have to put things into practice. So if you're ready for tools and exercises, you can learn more about the Better Sex Podcast in the Show notes below. So, thank you all for listening. And back to you, Shay. Now I'm going to put you back on the spot.

Deborah [01:00:33]:

What do you want people to walk away with from our conversation today?

Shay Sun [01:00:39]:

Yeah. Don't underestimate the power of communicating about like don't underestimate that. I think that's what it comes down to. I think we goes back to that idea of familiarity or we just think the fact that it's not powerful, but I think it is powerful. I think that when we can ask for what we need or ask what for the other person needs, I think you're going to get a huge ROI. I think we underestimate the power of physical, emotional, spiritual intimacy. I think that feeds our soul and our spirit more than anything you can buy on ebay or Amazon. I think there are some things that are hardwired into us and I think that the person can offer it in a way that will bring more meaning, more pleasure, more purpose into our so good.

Deborah [01:01:38]:

And where where can people find you?

Shay Sun [01:01:42]:

They can find me on Facebook, instagram TikTok. It's under Shay Timothy Sun or Shay T son. But yeah, Deborah, you are amazing and courageous and such a change agent for living through these in your own life, for offering this to your clients, and then for creating this podcast so that way your voice is heard and that other couples can decrease their suffering and increase their pleasure.

Deborah [01:02:16]:

Thank you for that. So my guest has been Shay Sun. He is amazing. So much incredible wisdom here. Please follow him on social media. And if you want to bring more love, better sex and create a better world, please hit like subscribe comment. Share this podcast episode with all the people you know who need to know more about communication and we'll see you on the flip side. Thank you so much.

Shay Sun [01:02:51]:

Bye.