“Love's Not Colorblind” & Polyamorous Communities with Kevin Patterson
In this episode of The Better Sex Podcast, I talk with Author & Polyamory Educator Kevin Patterson exploring the world of non-monogamy. During this conversation, we delve into the nuances of polyamory, debunking stereotypes, and discussing the importance of clear communication and respect in non-monogamous relationships. Kevin's personal experiences, from navigating long-term relationships to balancing family and social dynamics, offer valuable insights for anyone exploring life outside the bounds of monogamy. We also get into the challenges of balancing multiple relationship dynamics, maintaining personal interests, self-care and parenthood. Kevin speaks to race and representation in the polyamorous community, emphasizing that acknowledging racial differences can enrich our understanding of one another. Kevin’s thoughtful approach to identity, power dynamics, and personal customization of relationships promises to be both enlightening and transformative. Whether you are polyamory-curious or poly-experienced, this conversation is rich with valuable tips and perspectives to nurture healthy polyamorous relationships and foster more inclusive communities.
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In our commitment accessibility, help make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who like to read rather than listen to podcasts. The transcription is far from perfect, and in some cases quite amusing. As we grow edited transcripts are on the list in the meantime please enjoy.
Deborah [00:00:17]:
Welcome to the Better Sex Podcast. My name is Deborah Cat and I am your shameless host. This is the Better Sex Podcast where we have unfiltered conversations about sex and relationships. These conversations are frank and explicit and may not be appropriate for all audiences, so please listen with care. I truly believe that a sexy world creates a happier and a safer world. And if you want to do your part in creating a safe and sexy world, please hit like subscribe and leave a comment wherever you get your podcasts. Today we are diving into the world of my guest, Kevin Patterson. He's an active member of the Philadelphia Polyamory community.
Deborah [00:01:10]:
He's been practicing ethical non monogamy since August of 2002 after opening up a relationship that eventually became his marriage. In April of 2015, Kevin was inspired to start Poly Role Models, an interview series that brought people discovered describing their experiences in polyamory. Polyroll Models is part of a drive and a desire to change the way our lives and communities are viewed. To continue this discussion on polyamorous representation, Kevin has extended the blog's work into the writing of a book, Loves Not Colorblind Race and Representation in Polyamorous and Other Alternative Communities. Along with with co writer Elena Phelan, Kevin launched a sci fi novel series for hire that centers on characters of color as well as marginalized identities. I am super excited to have you here today, Kevin. Welcome to the podcast.
Kevin Patterson [00:02:26]:
Hey, thank you so much for having me. It's very much appreciated.
Deborah [00:02:30]:
So, first of all, I want to make sure that I got everything in the bio correct. And if there's anything you wanted to add there.
Kevin Patterson [00:02:38]:
Oh, no, no, no. I wrote that bio. It's, it's. It's. It's spot on.
Deborah [00:02:42]:
Okay, great. So, Polly the Poly. I want to start asking questions about Poly Role Models because as an interview series, what. What were things that you came across that surprised you in. In. In interviewing other people around Polygon?
Kevin Patterson [00:03:05]:
Something, something that. Something that I really. And part of the interview process, it was part of just the demographic of people who would follow who followed the blog. Because when the blog was active, it was on Tumblr and so many of the people following the blog were younger and it was just me. You know, like somebody would have an interesting name or I'd see somebody follow and I would just take a look at what their own page looked like. And so much of it seemed to be between the ages of like 15 and 25. You know, some of these folks probably didn't have a lot of polyamorous experience, but they were taking in a polyamorous resource. So many of the people that I know in polyamorous communities were well into adulthood.
Kevin Patterson [00:03:52]:
You know, some people well into older adulthood before they sort of made the discovery or, you know, sort of found it as something that brought comfort and joy to their lives. So seeing, seeing people sort of in tune with that at a much younger age, that was, that was really interesting. Like, it makes you, it makes you wonder, like, how this is going to look, you know, 10, 15, 20 years from now.
Deborah [00:04:14]:
I love that. So I'm curious, like, when, when did you run across your first non monogamous or alternative relationship?
Kevin Patterson [00:04:25]:
So what ended up happening was around this, around this time of year. First weekend in August, first weekend in August, there's a West Indian festival up in Toronto called Caribbean. It was me and it was a trip that it was like me and a few friends would make every year. And then one year it was me and a new girlfriend and one of her friends who made this trip. And I had made, I made a joke that something sexy might happen over the course of this trip. You know, it was, it was just a joke. But the girlfriend took it seriously. And once she wasn't completely repulsed by the idea, I was like, well, maybe I should make something happen here.
Kevin Patterson [00:05:10]:
And next thing you know, over the course of that trip, the three of us end up having some fun together. And when I expected the other shoe to drop, I expected it to get weird and awkward. Instead, it just sparked a lot of interesting conversations about what we wanted out of relationships. I'm still, I'm married to the girlfriend now. I'm still close friends with, with, with the friend. No, this is 20 something years ago. And it just sort of changed our perspective on what relationships were. Could be like.
Kevin Patterson [00:05:42]:
I didn't understand that you could just customize your relationship. I didn't understand that you could have a conversation on, you know, what does exclusivity mean in this relationship? Or like, you know, what does or does not constitute cheating? Or what kind of communication are we going to have around specific situations? I just thought you. The modeling, the modeling you get from like pop culture, the modeling you get from your parents, the modeling you get from, you know, just like just the culture in the culture at large. So just understanding that I could make my own choices and do something completely different than any of the modeling had offered to me, that was amazing. And at which point I was like, all right, well, I must have found a cheat code to this video game. And now I need to actually, I need to Protect my ability to use it. You know, I need to learn all the things, I need to find the resources, read all the books, listen to all the podcasts. Because if I can customize my relationships in the way that like, work best for everyone involved and not just do what I'm expected to do, you know, what else, what else is different in my life? What else is fake? What else can I customize? It just sort of rewrotes the way I looked at everything.
Deborah [00:07:01]:
I love that. Thank you. And I'm curious, so when you think about culture and you know, culture at large, is there any, you know, and I'm not necessarily talking about the how to books because there's some amazing books around there, but just in terms of just straight up culture, I'm curious if there's any movies, any books, including your own. Of course, in a more cultural aspect that you feel like are really, that really do a good job around poly and around different kinds of relationships.
Kevin Patterson [00:07:41]:
I know it's, it's, it's sort of understated now. Like, I don't, I don't know, I don't know how available it even is, but there was a show that I really enjoyed called Unicorn Land, and it was available on Vimeo. And essentially it was just a young woman who had gotten out of a relationship that decided that she wanted to like dating couples. And usually, usually the whole unicorn trope, the whole, you know, quote unquote, you know, hot, bye babe that fits in neatly as a third to people's relationships, is usually taken from the perspective of the pre established couple. And it usually ignores the fact that that, that is a very heavy ask. You know, wanting someone to come into your relationship and fall in love with two people equally and simultaneously, you know, that's, that's not an easy ask, but that's usually the perspective we get in media and representation. So seeing something that was from the perspective of the unicorn, as she said, like every episode it was maybe like three to 10, you know, three to five, you know, three to, you know, to eight minutes of per episode was just her dating a couple, having a situation, and then moving on to doing, you know, other things with herself. It was short, it was available on Vimeo, and I really enjoyed it.
Kevin Patterson [00:09:08]:
You could, you could binge the whole thing in like under an hour.
Deborah [00:09:11]:
I think I'm definitely gonna have to check that out because as somebody that has dated couples, it's so interesting across the board. It's like some places, it's like, you know, there's, there's a lot of like, oh, you shouldn't be a unicorn hunter, and, you know, coup shouldn't be looking for that. And it really takes the agency away from the person who might be interested, whether it's a male unicorn or a female unicorn, a person that might be interested in having that experience. So I'll have to check that out. Thank you. Thank you for that.
Kevin Patterson [00:09:47]:
Yeah. And I've heard a lot of the conversations around unicorn hunting, and I don't disagree with a lot of. I don't disagree with the discussion of a lot of negative elements of it, A lot of the toxicity around it. Whether there is toxicity or not, it is something that people want to engage in on both sides of that equation. It is something that people want to find love, enjoy, and satisfaction in. And the avenue should be there, but the discussion should be around making it safer, making it feel less power imbalance. If I can make up a random word. Yeah, like, just different sides of an identity had, like, had valuable perspective.
Kevin Patterson [00:10:34]:
And the truth is, every side of an identity has valuable perspective, but we don't always get that. You know, the reference I use an awful lot is at some point, somebody wrote into my blog saying, you know, I'm a bisexual woman, and, you know, I navigate my polyamory around avoiding the stereotype that we're greedy or selfish or confused and just want to sleep with everybody. And I was like, okay, that makes sense. I've heard of this stigma before. And then, like, only a few weeks later, someone else wrote in saying the exact opposite, saying, like, yeah, I'm a bisexual woman. I am greedy, confused, and I do want to sleep with everybody. And, you know, I navigate my polyamory directly into that stereotype because, you know, that's what I want to do.
Deborah [00:11:22]:
Yeah. I think what you're really pointing to, and I love this, is that, like, you know, we get to make up the rules and we get to make up what works for us. And as you said earlier, you know, when you figured out, like, wow, relationships can look the way that it feels good to me, what else is. Is there that that can be more customized, if you will, or more around, you know, how I do things. And I also want to, you know, underscore that when we bring respect and consent and caring, you know, those are the sort of, for me anyway, those are my goalposts around, like, well, is this working? Does this work for everybody involved? And, you know, I. I think what you pointed to around power is a very important part of the conversation. You know, is it? And I Think it's often just taking the example of the unicorn. It's always thought about that, like, oh, the couple has power here, but each person in that triad, in that formation has a form of power.
Kevin Patterson [00:12:41]:
Yeah.
Deborah [00:12:43]:
And so, you know, one of the really interesting conversations around. Around poly, around non monogamy and actually just dating in general is it's like, what does the power dynamic look like? You know, because there's all sorts of different ways it could be, you know, it could be around gender, it could be around the idea of class. It could be like power on all of these different qualities to them, depending on who the players are.
Kevin Patterson [00:13:18]:
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And, you know, the least we can do is like, just have these discussions, you know, just so that we understand. Just so, like, even if we don't agree with one another, we want to understand at least where each other is coming from, you know, it's what empathy is built off of.
Deborah [00:13:40]:
Absolutely. And speaking of that, one of the. I'm going to make a U turn here and talk a little bit about your book, Love's Not Colorblind.
Kevin Patterson [00:13:51]:
Yeah.
Deborah [00:13:52]:
And I'm wondering if you'd be willing to, you know, take a moment and talk a little bit about how this book came about. Came about.
Kevin Patterson [00:14:02]:
Yeah. So like I said, my wife and I, we had. We had landed in non monogamy. It wasn't so much an intentional thing, but once we decided, like, okay, this is a good thing, this is a thing we want to do. This is a place we want to stay among listening to podcasts and reading books and just like trying to get as much information as we can. We started looking for community. We started looking for community. And really early on we had run into some mishaps surrounding race, you know, and it wasn't always mishap.
Kevin Patterson [00:14:46]:
It wasn't always microaggressions. Sometimes it was. Sometimes it was just understanding that the perspective, the predominant perspective wasn't ours. You know, like when you look at the books, when you look at the books, the books available, like, most of the books, the big names were written by white women. Like more than. More than two. Eve Rickert, Tristan Tamino, Opening Up Ethical Slut, Cunning Minx has a book, and Dedeker Winston from Multi Emery has a book. And we realized that there was just a lack of perspective in regards to the racial experience in polyamory communities.
Kevin Patterson [00:15:33]:
And it just became a topic of conversation, like between me and friends, between me and a partner, between me and whoever, to the point where, like, someone pulled me aside and said, like, hey, Kev, you should be speaking about this in a more academic place in front of bigger audiences, like, intentional audiences, not just on a couch holding a drink at a party, you know. So I started signing up to do, like, to speak anywhere available. And like, poly role model. Poly role models had given me enough of a name and enough of a perspective that people thought, hey, maybe I want to hear more from this guy. And once I started speaking about race and polyamory, it turned really quickly into, hey, maybe you should be writing a book about this. And so much of it was just me coming from my own personal experiences in referencing to the experiences of others and. And just sort of breaking down the way racial dynamics work in these communities. Because, like, yeah, polymorphism, or I'm sorry, Love's not colorblind is.
Kevin Patterson [00:16:37]:
But like, if you swap out polyamory for, like, any number of communities, the book stays roughly the same. Like, one of the better compliments that I've gotten on the book is, hey, I gave this book around to my swing dancing community. Or, hey, you know, I encourage, like, the owners of such and such, you know, not polyamory related club to read this book, and they got a lot out of it.
Deborah [00:17:03]:
So the phrase love's not colorblind, which is the title of your book, I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about how that became the title of your book.
Kevin Patterson [00:17:16]:
To be honest, that was entirely a publisher choice. The publisher chose the name, and I did not have a better one.
Deborah [00:17:28]:
Thank you.
Kevin Patterson [00:17:29]:
Yeah, yeah. Well, it just like, I wish I could tell you that there was like some spark of inspiration and give you like a 30 second breakdown, but no, no, the publisher, Publishers had a better name in their head than I had, which was not really a name at all.
Deborah [00:17:47]:
Got it. Well, I just know for myself, you know, one of the places where the conversation about race for me got more real was when a leader from the stage of a 500 person event, when somebody said something about there not being more people of color there, said, well, I don't see color.
Kevin Patterson [00:18:13]:
And oh, boy.
Deborah [00:18:15]:
Yeah. And it was. It was. What was fascinating about it was first I had the visceral experience of like, something is off here. And then I started really to think about it. And so when I started reading your book and you're starting to talk about that idea of when we don't see color, we don't see other people.
Kevin Patterson [00:18:38]:
Yeah.
Deborah [00:18:39]:
And it's like. Oh, like it was kind of an obvious thing once I read it, but it was like that was that feeling of like, oh, well, when I deny that I'm not really seeing people. And I'm wondering if you could speak a little bit about that.
Kevin Patterson [00:18:56]:
Yeah. And like, it's one of those things where I guess the intent, maybe it's supposed to be good natured, as in, like, you know, I'm divorced of my prejudices, or I guess is what. Is what that's trying to say. But the fact is we're not. We're not. We live in a culture. We live in a society. We're socialized to see things a certain way, you know, and if we ignore that, there's a lot of other stuff we're ignoring as well.
Kevin Patterson [00:19:27]:
You know, the whole I don't see color thing. Like, well, you know, me being black impacts my life on a daily basis. It impacts the choices that I make. And if that's something that people around me are willfully being ignorant to, there's a lot of my real experiences, a lot of my identity, they're just ignoring, you know, like, so when you're black in America, race isn't always like a class that you're taking. It's a set of experiences that run into you. At least for me. For me, you know, something would happen in my life, you know, and I'd be like, wow, this thing just happened to me. And my black friends would be like, yeah, that happened to me too.
Kevin Patterson [00:20:11]:
And my white friends would be like, wow, that seems like a completely foreign experience to me. Like, it's effed up that that happened to you. But that's not something that would happen that. That has. Or would. Or. Sounds familiar. Me, you know, and I'm not speaking like, you know, college age, adulthood.
Kevin Patterson [00:20:28]:
I'm speaking on, like, playground, elementary school. You pick up on this stuff so quickly, so easily that to ignore that, you know, ignore what sort of shapes and perspective, you know, knowing what. Ignoring what. What shapes how you see the world and your understanding of how the world sees you. It's. It's rude and it's gross. The intent is, I guess, pleasant. But, like, the reality is, like, dehumanizing.
Deborah [00:21:02]:
Yeah. And as I was reading your book more and really dropping into all of the places where the subtleties of how that comes up and what really stood out to me as well was this idea of, you know, when a conflict comes up in a community and somebody brings something forward, and then there's the, oh, well, I didn't have that experience. And then, you know, it becomes this sort of like, well, those who've had the experience against those that haven't had the experience. And I'm wondering if there's a, you know, how. How would you suggest that communities look at these kinds of problems as they come forward?
Kevin Patterson [00:21:52]:
The easiest thing to do, which is strangely also the hardest thing to do, is just listen. Listen to people. Listen to people and believe that they understand their circumstances better than you understand their circumstances. I've definitely run into, like, so I was speaking at. I was speaking at an event at Atlanta, and I was speaking about, you know, race and polyamory, and a fellow stands up and he's like, okay, but this racism you speak of, where does this happen? And I was like, America? And he's like, no, no, no, but where in America? And he's like, because I'm from some specific town in Massachusetts, you know, and I've got a black neighbor, and he doesn't experience any of these things. And I'm like, well, first things first. Massachusetts has its own very distinct and very loud flavor of racism. And I guarantee you that this neighbor you're talking about, if he were here, his experiences would be different than you think or say that they are.
Kevin Patterson [00:22:59]:
You know, like, his experiences might not look like my experiences, but he understands what he's talking. He would understand his. His, you know, his dynamic with race better than this miscellaneous guy who was telling me that his neighbor had no problems. You know, there's always someone who wants to believe that they understand your situation better than you. When you get a bad shake and they don't, you know, there's always someone who wants to, like, find a way to differentiate, you know, like, I've never had a conversation about police run ins without somebody jumping in and saying, well, I don't have a problem with the police, you know, or, you know, when I got pulled over by the police, they just let me go. I don't know why you had a problem. It must have been what you were wearing or what's been some music you were listening to or the way that you walked, or there's always someone trying to come up with, this is a reason why you deserve poor treatment. And it's.
Kevin Patterson [00:24:04]:
And all I can tell people is just listen, you know, just listen. Like, it's very clear that you have an opinion. It's not based on lived experience. You. If you care at all about this problem, though, I'm not sure that you do, but if you do, you should just be listening to people who understand what they're saying and believing that they understand what they're saying.
Deborah [00:24:27]:
Yeah. And, you know, listening without being Defensive and listening with being, you know, like an open heart or an open mind or both of all of the above is probably one of the most complicated feeling experiences because it's such a. It can. It can be such an uncomfortable experience. I mean, even, you know, I know with my partner, sometimes when I. When he brings something up and my noticing. My first reaction of wanting to be defensive and wanting to be like, well, you know, and pointing the finger and, you know, as I hear you say that, it's like. It's definitely like I can feel the personal as well as the.
Deborah [00:25:22]:
As the communal piece around being able to listen without defensiveness. And it's such a tricky experience.
Kevin Patterson [00:25:32]:
Yeah. And like, I. There. There have definitely been conversations in. In my past where somebody was like, hey, Kev, can we talk about a thing that you said? Can we talk about a thing that you did? And my first. My first, you know, my first instinct is like, I'm gonna be defensive here. You know, like. But sort of stomping that down and making the choice, like the active choice.
Kevin Patterson [00:25:55]:
You know what? I'm just going to listen. I'm just going to hear what they got to say about this. Nine times out of 10, they're like, hey, this is what's going on. And I understand where they're coming from. And I'm like, okay, maybe I don't agree, but I see your perspective and we can move to a positive place, at least from me understanding where you're coming from, instead of trying to act like you don't know what you're talking about or that you know, or your. Your. Your feelings are invalid or what have you just understand. Just listening to somebody, listening.
Kevin Patterson [00:26:27]:
Someone that's sort of understanding what kind of resolution they're looking for, understanding that their. Their feelings are. Are real to them. You know, it's. It. It goes. So it goes. It goes a really long way to making.
Kevin Patterson [00:26:41]:
To making situations sort of get resolved and then move on positively.
Deborah [00:26:48]:
Yeah. Beautiful. Thank you. So one of the things in the book, you know, you talk a lot about your. You know, you set the book up really well, and I love the fact that you offer solutions, but. Or you offer suggestions. You don't offer solutions. And it's like the reading of the book.
Deborah [00:27:12]:
You get to be uncomfortable for a while.
Kevin Patterson [00:27:15]:
Yeah. And that was that. That was intentional. That was intentional because the disc. The discomfort is necessary. You know, like, you can't. You can't have social change from a comfortable spot. You can't.
Kevin Patterson [00:27:29]:
You know, you can't enact. You can't enact social change without looking in at some of the darker, darker or misunderstood or uncomfortable or awkward spaces within yourself. It's. There's a story in the book. There's a story in the book where I had gone to an event over in, like, Denver, and I got mistaken several times for another black attendee at that event, to the point where somebody came up behind me as I was getting breakfast and, you know, came up behind me and gave me, like, a kiss on the cheek until I turned around and they realized that I wasn't the guy they were looking, Looking for. You know, everybody, Everybody, everybody there needed to be made to feel uncomfortable because I was made to feel uncomfortable. You know, I was made to feel uncomfortable. And if they don't want that to happen again, if they don't want to, you know, if they don't want, you know, me or someone else just like me to experience that same level of discomfort, that's something they got to sit within themselves and understand about themselves and work to be better at, you know, working and doing, Knowing better and doing better.
Kevin Patterson [00:28:45]:
Everybody needs that. That's something that benefits everybody, not just yourself, but your community, your friends, your family.
Deborah [00:28:52]:
Absolutely. I'm curious. So I'm going to leave this book for a moment and talk about some of your other writings. And I love the fact that you. Our science fiction writer.
Kevin Patterson [00:29:10]:
Yeah.
Deborah [00:29:12]:
And while I was surprised and delighted to realize that. And I'm wondering if you could talk a little bit about For Hire and the way that that came about.
Kevin Patterson [00:29:31]:
So while I was writing, while I was writing Love's Not Colorblind, it was like, November came up. It was a national novel writing month, and I saw a lot of people on my feed talking about it, and I had some superhero ideas in my head, so I decided to just go for it. I sat down, Love's Not Colorblind for, like, a month, and instead worked on a longer story, a longer story that would eventually become the seeds for hire. When Love's Not Colorblind was out, I sat down with my friend Alana and I was like, hey, I actually think I've got something here, something I want to move forward with. How does it sound to you? The analogy I always use is that when I was in college, I had friends that would rap. I had friends where if you gave them a topic, if you gave them several topics, they could rhyme, they could freestyle off the top of their head for hours and hours and hours nonstop. They were. You know, my.
Kevin Patterson [00:30:35]:
My friends could run. They were pretty incredible. But if I said, like, write a three verse song. You know, they would struggle with, they would have struggled with that. You know, if I was like, hey, you know, write three 16 bar verses and a chorus, they would have had problem. They would have, like, that would have been a tougher task for them. And that's how it was with Alana and I and writing superhero stuff where I've got all sorts of ideas in my head because like I. I watch a lot of fantasy and science f I'm a Star wars guy, got video, you know, video game and Star wars tattoos on my body and stuff.
Kevin Patterson [00:31:11]:
So like. But for me it's more like slamming action figures together and calling it a good time. Whereas Atlanta, who, you know, who reads hundreds of books a year and is a librarian by trade and really studies like, you know, navigator structure and all of that, Elena was able to like, help me focus a lot of my ideas into something that was worth, you know, worth reading in the same way that like I would help my friends now narrow a hundred bars of freestyle off the top of the dome to a 16 bar verse. You know, like, we, like, we would help each other turn, you know, turn something into, like, into something readable, you know.
Deborah [00:31:57]:
Mm.
Kevin Patterson [00:31:59]:
And the, the whole, the whole idea with. The whole idea with the For Hire universe, like, I'm. I'm very tuned into universes, like, I like more so than characters. Like, I didn't really get into the Hunger Games because, like, I'm not interested in that universe, you know, Whereas something like, like the Marvel universe or Star wars or something like that, I like that universe. I don't care what story you're telling me inside of Star Wars, I'd like that universe I'm checked in for of it. The good, the bad and this and the indifferent stuff. So I wanted to make a universe that seemed compelling and interesting to me. And Alana and I put together this setup where the celebrities are superheroes, but.
Kevin Patterson [00:32:47]:
Sorry, the superheroes are also celebrities. The superheroes are like our official protectors. But also you've got sort of this shady side of superpowers. You know, you can sign. You can sign up to be an operator instead of a superhero and operator. Sort of like if Batman or the Punisher took paychecks, you know. So just having this dynamic between like these two sort of opposing factions of superheroes, like the official guys in the spotlight and they sort of underbelly guys doing the dirty work, doing the legal dirty work. And then also we wanted to make sure that we put like, we want to sort of put identity front and center, like, not so much as a narrative device, but there's a lot of science fiction where they sort of posit that we're in this future full, you know, away from, you know, oppression and bigotry and all that.
Kevin Patterson [00:33:47]:
But they never say, like, how we got there. And the story almost always still follows, like, a cisgender heterosexual white man, even though we're in a place that. Like that. Where racism doesn't exist. So we just wanted to put. Well, one. We wanted to sort of point out why oppression, why bigotry looks differently in this universe. It's not gone, but it is diminished.
Kevin Patterson [00:34:13]:
And it's diminished because superheroes made that an active part of the struggle. It wasn't just, you know, saving a crashing plane. It was also like speaking out about injustice when seen, because they're the people who have the power to create social change. And then also we wanted to create characters of varying identities. Like, I jokingly call it queer polyamorous superhero novels. But, like, the queer and the polyamorous aspect are just aspects of the character. They're not aspects of the narrative.
Deborah [00:34:48]:
Have you. Have you heard of. Or. I'm imagining you've read When Gravity Falls Fails Falls.
Kevin Patterson [00:34:58]:
I haven't.
Deborah [00:34:59]:
Oh, my goodness. Well, his last name is Effinger, and I think you would really enjoy his world because this world reminded me very much of his, where basically many of the characters use. Basically it's AI modifications, and the hero is an Arab, and he is connected to a trans woman. So it's a very interesting world.
Kevin Patterson [00:35:43]:
Wow.
Deborah [00:35:45]:
But anyway, I digress.
Kevin Patterson [00:35:47]:
Well, I've got a credit on my audible account, so I just bought it.
Deborah [00:35:52]:
Oh, okay.
Kevin Patterson [00:35:53]:
Yeah. So that'll be one of my next reads.
Deborah [00:35:56]:
Oh, I love that. Well, I'm very pleased with myself for being able to turn you on to that. So, you know, one of the other things that I really wanted to talk to you about is fatherhood. And when, in our first conversation, I got to see you with your kids briefly, but ice cream and kids. So I had that sort of picture of you in my head. And I'm curious, what are some of the things that you've learned about yourself as a father?
Kevin Patterson [00:36:37]:
What I've learned is the kind of things that I expected to really value as a father are very much different than the things that my parents expected for me to value or expected or. Sorry. The things that I expect of myself as a dad are very different than what my dad expected as a dad. My dad, he can be very conservative. My dad can be very everything, everything is, everything is one way and if it doesn't, if it doesn't fit within his worldview, it's wrong. Whereas for me, I'm more, I'm more open minded to the experiences of my kids. But part of that is just me wanting to have been hurried as a dad. But part of it is that with social media, with social media being the way that it is, kids can sort of like fact check their, their, their, their childhood in real time.
Kevin Patterson [00:37:45]:
Which is very interesting to me where everything that I grew up, everything that I grew up with as a norm, it's just because I didn't have other people to really have the conversation with. Like, yeah, I had friends at school, friends around, but we weren't like doing deep dive into what each other's home lives were. Whereas now that's all we do. Everything is content, everything is, you know, everything is on tick tock. And so like if I was like a shitty dad, if I was like an abusive dad or something like that, that would be just a Reddit, a Reddit post away from my kids realizing that what's happening in the house isn't normal. And now like, and now they've got a, you know, make their own plans.
Deborah [00:38:30]:
Did, is there anything in particular that you were like. Yep, they totally fact checked this on us.
Kevin Patterson [00:38:37]:
Really simple stuff. Like I once called my kid downstairs to pass me the remote control, which was a move my dad had done on me before. Called me from a completely different room so that I could pass him the remote control that was sitting in the room that he was in. And I got a lecture from a four year old, you know, I got a lecture about laziness, you know, as a four year old, because I'm from a four year old because, because she's seen enough around her to know, like, yeah, this is a problem dad. This is like, this is the kind of, this isn't the kind of father kid relationship we're gonna have here.
Deborah [00:39:18]:
Oh my God, that's so gay.
Kevin Patterson [00:39:20]:
So it's something, it's something that I, it's something that I appreciate. Like my kids are way smarter, are way smarter than I was at their age. And like, I can't get over it. They're way more put together and focused on what they're doing than I was at their age.
Deborah [00:39:37]:
And I'm curious along lines of, you know, what would you say has been your like, I nailed that dad moment?
Kevin Patterson [00:39:51]:
There are two. And it's for my older kid who's 14 now, where I've got a 2 TV set up in my basement and typically I'm playing video games on one and watching a movie or sports or something on the other. But when my kids are down here, it's usually I've got something on for me and something on for them. But as my kids were younger, my older kid, I put on that, that they, I put on. I was watching a movie on one side and I put on that Talladega Knights Will Ferrell movie. The, the, the, the, the car racing NASCAR movie that Will Ferrell has. And I, I was just, in my head, I'm just like, if I'm going to be watching something while my kid's watching Dora the Explorer, let me just find something that doesn't have a lot of violence or sex in it. You know, that was just the whole gameplay.
Kevin Patterson [00:40:44]:
And at the end of the movie, Will Ferrell ends up kissing Sasha Baron Cohen's character. Like they have some emotional moment and they, and they make out and my kid is just like, dad, why is that boy kissing that other boy? And in my head, like I'm, I'm trying to construct an age appropriate model for all of human sexuality. And all I got. And I just blurred it out, out. They must really like each other. And then my kid's like, oh, okay. And goes back to playing. And I was like, I nailed that.
Kevin Patterson [00:41:19]:
I killed it. I did, I did it right there. Like, it doesn't get any better than that.
Deborah [00:41:25]:
Beautiful.
Kevin Patterson [00:41:27]:
Yeah.
Deborah [00:41:29]:
And there was a second one.
Kevin Patterson [00:41:31]:
Yeah. Something, something similar happened years later. I had, I got put in a local newspaper. I had gotten like a little article in a local newspaper and I was pret excited about it. It was like the first time that it ever happened. And this same kid is just like, okay, but why, like why, why are you in a newspaper? What do you do? And why does anybody care about you? And so I'm like. And it was, it was about, like it was about Poly Ro, the article. So I was like, well, do you know how I loved you and you know how I love your sister? She.
Kevin Patterson [00:42:07]:
And he's like, yeah. I was like, well, I love my wife, your mom, you know, and I love my girlfriend. And that makes our family a little bit different. And kid was just like, oh, but I love my family. And then picks up some toys and runs off to go play. And that was the whole conversation. Right. So, you know, being a parent and polyamorous, a lot of times people ask me whether or not my kids know or how they would feel about it.
Kevin Patterson [00:42:34]:
And the Kids know. The kids know to a very age appropriate degree, which, which I think should be standard for whole parents. But what ends up happening is they, this is, this is their norm. They, they meet my partners, they understand what's going on there. They don't really care a whole lot because they're busy doing their own thing. We don't hide it from them. But also, it's not interesting to them. You know, it'll be interesting to them maybe when they, when they're, when they're old enough to date themselves, but then it'll be them dating and not, you know, not about.
Kevin Patterson [00:43:09]:
About my dating.
Deborah [00:43:12]:
And so I'm curious, like, what, what conversations have you had with your, your, your oldest, who's about to head into dating? About. About poly or about. Well, I. About what kinds of suggestions you've made around, around what dating is and how to approach it. It.
Kevin Patterson [00:43:39]:
Well, the discussions I have with my kids are never about polyamory in general. They're always focused around things like autonomy and consent and respect and like understanding when somebody's treating you well and when someone's treating you poorly, how they end up crafting their relationships, how and with whom they end up crafting their relationships. I'm less concerned about that than I am just giving them the right tools to make smart decisions with their partnerships because it's really easy to fall down a rabbit hole and lose 2, 3, 6, 12 years with the wrong person just because you didn't know exactly what it was you were looking for or how to ask for it.
Deborah [00:44:26]:
Awesome. So in a minute, I'm going to ask you because our conversation has gone all sorts of lovely different directions. But in a minute, I'm going to invite you if you've got one thing that you want people to get of out of our conversation, what it might be. But. And while you're considering that, I'm going to give people a chance to know how they can support the Better Sex podcast. Because, you know, sex is a complex issue and it can make or break a relationship. And unfortunately, most of us don't have Kevin as a dad who's going to help us have these kinds of conversations. And so that's why I offer the Better Sex membership.
Deborah [00:45:12]:
And it is a relationship lab where you get to come and learn and practice all sorts of skills, communication, empowerment, and pleasure skills. Because let's face it, a podcast is not enough. You have to have more. So if you're ready for tips and tools and exercises to help you learn how to have more satisfying relationships and better Sex. Please check out the show notes because life is too short for bad sex. All right, so what. What would you like people to get out of our conversation here today?
Kevin Patterson [00:45:55]:
So when we started, when we started this journey, my wife and I, I expected to have a whole lot of really negative feelings when she started dating. Like, when she started, like, just dating separately. When she started dating, you know, solo, I expected to have all sorts of really aggressive and, you know, table flipping, wall punching feelings. And none of that really materialized. And which is weird. It's weird that I thought that that was going to happen because that's not really how I manage myself or my conflicts or anything anyway. But I was expecting to have a lot of negative reactions. And when those didn't materialize, I was like, all right, well, why did I think I was going to have those reactions? And it's because society says I'm supposed to have these reactions.
Kevin Patterson [00:46:45]:
So I was like, all right, well, but I didn't. So what else is fake? You know, what other expectations are there of me as a person that don't generate from me as an individual? What I would want people to get away from this conversation is explore that. Pull that thread. You know, Pull that thread. Maybe you pull the thread off, or maybe you end up needing a whole new sweater when you're done. Done. Because there's a lot of situations, there's a lot of socialization that we get that we don't really examine, that we don't really examine. But sometimes you're not being the best person you want to be.
Kevin Patterson [00:47:22]:
Or maybe you're not. Maybe you are expecting. Maybe you're leading into an expectation and not a reality. And if that's the case, stop and think about it. Because who knows where that'll take? You can customize your situation. You have more of a capacity to customize your situation than you might realize.
Deborah [00:47:45]:
Oh, that's so good. I love hearing that. And yes, like, you know, we have all of these ideas about what things are supposed to look like and what boxes we're supposed to fit in. And the reality is most of us aren't very comfy in those boxes. And, you know, so really exploring what's true for you versus what you think that you're going to is going to be true. So hearing you say that, I have a couple more questions, if you don't mind. So it sounds like one of the things that surprised you about Polly was your own reaction to your wife's experience.
Kevin Patterson [00:48:34]:
Yeah, yeah.
Deborah [00:48:36]:
And I'm wondering, you know, what were some of the other things that surprised you around Polly and non monogamy me.
Kevin Patterson [00:48:43]:
Something, that's something that surprised me was how much, how much that energy goes around where if I'm happy in one relationship that carries into my other relationships as well. Like it carries like there, there's, you can, you can just carry good energy with you, you know, to places that are suffering from a lack thereof. I wasn't, I wasn't expecting that. You know, that's not the, that's not the, that's not what the representation says is going to happen. What the representation says is that person one is going to make me jealous of person two and, and then, and vice versa until everything melts down around me. But really it's about finding the right people who are on your wavelength and then communicating and respecting in a way that maintains that dynamic. You know, like find the right, find the right people, treat them the right way.
Deborah [00:49:46]:
I really want to underscore the treat him the right way part and just, I'm wondering if you have any words of wisdom about being the hinge or being the person in between two other people.
Kevin Patterson [00:50:03]:
That's always, that's always a bit of a tightrope. I try to, I try to play the balance between. I'll jump like, I don't want to be super involved in what y'all dynamic is, but also playing the referee and being like, okay, but we're going to keep this respectful though, you know, like if two of my partners had a problem with each other, like we're going to at least keep it respectful. We're going to at least keep it above board. We're at least not going to, on either person because like I feel like as the hinge, it's my responsibility to protect my relationships even if it's from my other relationships. So I try to, I try to keep it that way. And thankfully most of my relationships have been relatively, relatively drama free in that way.
Deborah [00:50:56]:
And your relationships have also been quite long term. If I, I'm.
Kevin Patterson [00:51:02]:
If I remember correctly, I'm currently in the longest relationships. Like all of my relationships that I'm in are currently all of the longest relationships I've ever been in. Like I've, I've been with my wife for 20 plus years. I've got several partners who I've been with for five, six, seven years. And, and a lot of that is just, a lot of that is just sort of listening, communicating, understanding, like accommodating where I can, pushing back where necessary. I'm not a big, I'm Not a big bombastic guy in my relationships. So my partner, my partners can trust that I'm going to listen to them when they need to be heard. You know, my partners, my partners give me a lot of good faith because I've engendered a lot of good faith and vice versa, you know, so like, they understand that if I have a, if I, if I say something that's upset, the first and foremost understand, like, okay, he's not trying to be upsetting.
Kevin Patterson [00:52:06]:
Where's he going, where he, where is he coming from with this? Where is he going with this? Can we have a longer conversation about what you want, what you're saying, why I'm upset? You know, how can we, how can we, you know, figure this out together? Like, my relationships run really smoothly because everybody's listening to everybody, everybody's checking in repeatedly. It's actually pretty awesome.
Deborah [00:52:28]:
And what kind of support do you personally have in terms of, you know, your relationships and sort of people who are going to sort of keep you on the straight and narrow, if you will. Like, what kind of reflection support do you get?
Kevin Patterson [00:52:46]:
I mean, I mean, first and foremost, like my partners are all very respective of my other relationships. So like, if I'm screwing up in one relationship, I'm going to hear about it from the other people in my life, you know, and they trust that I'll listen and I will. But outside of that, there have been a couple of times where we've had to seek professional counseling, but a lot of that is just we're not on the same page. We're not hearing each other right now. Let's figure out how to hear each other better. Let's figure out how to at least understand what the other person is saying and where they're coming from. From. But for the most, for the most part.
Kevin Patterson [00:53:32]:
For the most part, like the engine checks itself.
Deborah [00:53:36]:
Beautiful. And this is a little bit of a variation, but I'm really curious like, you know, are you somebody who needs some alone, you know, a lot of alone time? Like what is your self care? Like?
Kevin Patterson [00:53:50]:
So I've always got, I've always got other stuff going on. Like I've always got solo stuff going on. Whether it's I'm working on a book or just well into whatever hobby. I'm into video games. I just got back into pro wrestling for the first time in a few years, so that's been a lot of fun.
Deborah [00:54:13]:
Wait, watching or doing it?
Kevin Patterson [00:54:15]:
Watching. Watching. I watch for a few years and then I leave it for a few years and I've just gotten back into it, so I'm. I'm having fun with that. So whenever my plans dry up, you know, whenever life happens, whenever somebody's sick or has Covid or just doesn't feel like going out on whatever date we have planned, like, I'm able to take that time and just relax and I carve that time out for myself as well. But it's. It's one of the things that makes my relationship smoother is that because I have other things going on in my life, if somebody's like, hey, I've actually got a date that's supposed to be here in half an hour who I haven't heard from in a few hours, I'm expecting this date to be canceled. Nothing wrong.
Kevin Patterson [00:55:03]:
It's very hot outside, and I don't think they want to come outside. So when I get the message, when I possibly get the message that says, hey, Kev, I'm not up to seeing you tonight, I'm going to be disappointed for about 20 minutes, and then I'm going to switch gears into doing something else that I want to do and like and enjoy. So, like, I always find a way to carve out my personal time while also spending time with my partners, time with my wife, time with my kids.
Deborah [00:55:32]:
Beautiful. Thank you. So, last question. How do we find you? How do we get more of you?
Kevin Patterson [00:55:38]:
Well, I am available. I'm poly role models all over social media. I'm poly role models on Instagram and Twitter and Facebook and some of those are active. Some of the time. My. My books are available@Kevin Patterson.com and also like, you know, on, like, Amazon and Love's not colorblind is. Is just available wherever books are sold. So, yeah, yeah, that's where.
Kevin Patterson [00:56:03]:
That's where I'm at, and that's what I'm up to.
Deborah [00:56:05]:
Beautiful. Thank you so much.
Kevin Patterson [00:56:07]:
Thank you.
Deborah [00:56:08]:
My. My guest today, Kevin Patterson, is an author, a poly role model, a host of help figure out what is going to support their communities as well as their own relationships. And one more time, your social media, please.
Kevin Patterson [00:56:36]:
I'm ollirollmodels all over the place at.
Deborah [00:56:39]:
Polirollmodels all over the place. All right, well, follow him. And thank you again for a spicy conversation. And you have been listening to the better sex podcast. I look forward to the next episode. Take good care now.
Kevin Patterson [00:57:01]:
Hey, thank you so much for having me.