What is Relationship Anarchy? A conversation with Annie Boheler
In this episode of The Better Sex Podcast, I talk with holistic mental health pioneer, Annie Boheler. Annie introduces us to the concept of relationship anarchy– a uniquely refreshing approach to relationships that balances chaos and order, recognizing the full range of connections equally. Hear about the influence of
drawing from her extensive background in biology, environmental sciences, trauma healing, and psychedelic integration.
Annie’s extensive background in biology, environmental sciences, trauma healing, and psychedelic integration influences how she views the range and styles of relationships and the varying factors that play an impactful role to our experiences of autonomy and intimacy. Along the way, we explore her insights on dealing with societal norms like monogamy, and the importance of consent and authentic communication while healing relationships. We also discuss the pervasive impacts of shame and information overload, and how to navigate modern challenges in our relationships. Throughout the conversation, Annie offers us actionable steps to enhance connection and cultivate healthier, more fulfilling relationships.
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Deborah [00:00:00]:
Thing to do. Great. All right, and welcome to the Better Sex Podcast. My name is Deborah Cat and I am your shameless host. This is the Better Sex Podcast where we have unfiltered conversations about sex and relationships. And this show is about the many different possibilities of relationships and helping you figure out what works for you so that you can have better sex and satisfying relationships on your terms. I truly believe that a sexy world creates a happier and a safer world. If you want to do your part in creating a safe and sexy world, please hit like subscribe and leave a comment wherever you get your podcasts.
Deborah [00:00:53]:
Today we are going to dive into the world of my guest, Annie Boheler. She is at the forefront of change in the mental health field as it expands toward holistic care. To Annie, holistic care considers the intimate social and environmental context and how they contribute to the overall well being. She is a certified Somatica practitioner, Somatic Experiencing Trauma Healing practitioner, works with psychedelic integration and has a BS in biology and environmental sciences. I am super excited to have her here as we dive into one form of non monogamy that often doesn't get a whole lot of spotlight time and that is relationship anarchy. So welcome Annie, I'm so glad you're here.
Annie Boheler [00:01:52]:
Thank you, Deborah. I'm honored to be here and thank you so much for sharing your space and time with me. I'm excited.
Deborah [00:02:00]:
My pleasure. So I'm curious, I read the official bio. I know you a little bit here there as a colleague and in the Somatica world and I'm curious, like how did you get interested? How did you go from biology and environmental science to sex and relationship and psychedelic integration?
Annie Boheler [00:02:27]:
Well, that's a good question and I appreciate it because yeah, with my major and my background and my interest in, interest in experience in regenerative farming after I finished college, it does, you know, from the surface level seem like a little bit of a leap sometimes. So my degree is in a, in a general form, ecology. So ecology is based in systems thinking of our environment and is focused on the relationships as opposed to the individuals within the context. So it's very relational. Ecology is all about the relationship in between the water and the animal and the sunlight and the seasons and all of these complex factors that go into a biome. So for me it's, I can, I. I'm able to go into, you know, as intimate space because of the training and experience like our shared training Somatica, into the, the nuances of an interpersonal relationship and then in that, from that environmental lens Kind of zoom out into the meta social landscape and then you know, we are living in a time of a climate emergency and this affects people's nervous systems, this affects people's values and lifestyle and everything in between. So I definitely am on the, on the, my, my personal and, and also professional growth edge is around.
Annie Boheler [00:04:09]:
Like what does it look like to integrate the politicization, if that's the right way to say that of you know, our bodily autonomy. How can we, you know, I don't think we can talk about having you know, a liberated culture around like pleasure and sex without acknowledging the political atmosphere that we're all like couched within to some degree.
Deborah [00:04:36]:
You know, it's funny hearing you say that. It makes perfect sense. But you know, as you said, all of these things are relational and have an effect on who we are and how we see ourselves. And one of the big things that, you know, I certainly see a lot of in my work and I'm imagining it's true in yours as well, is the place where shame either shuts us down or explodes or just has us, has us not really appreciating who it is we are and our relationships with other people.
Annie Boheler [00:05:17]:
Yeah, and then that coupled with like the fact that we can at our fingertips because of smartphones now have access to so much information, which is not a good or bad thing, it just is. But it's a lot for our evolution to like catch up with. It's a lot of information and it's inherently overwhelming. So we can learn about what's going on in Gaza, we can learn about the climate emergency, we can learn about the politics and just whatever's happening anywhere in the world. That's a lot of information and it's inherently overwhelming. So I think that that coupled with that unfortunate aspect of shame that we've all been exposed to around our bodies and intimacy, it makes sense why there can be like a freeze response or just like opting out, you know, in some ways. So I think those things compound each other for sure.
Deborah [00:06:14]:
So I'm curious, you know, speaking of information and the Internet and everything else, it seems like there is more attention on non monogamous styles of relationship and relating. And you know, that usually take, takes on a very, it takes on different lenses but I know one of the lenses that really doesn't get covered, as I said earlier, was, was relationship anarchy. And it's quite a, quite a title. And I know that, you know, I'm imagining that many of, many of the folks listening don't really know what that Means because, you know, the anarchy for some people, for most, many people bring up a lot of like, what is that? You know, it's, it's people running around and, you know, chaos and, but, but I love the way that you talk about, about that word and, and so I'd love if you would take a moment and just, you know, define it and, and tell us a little bit about what you're experiences there.
Annie Boheler [00:07:28]:
Yeah, thank you for that. And I think the stigma around the word anarchy and anarchism is one of the main reasons that, that this structure, which is counterintuitive from what we've been taught around anarchism is that there is structure, there is not as talked about. And I'll say a couple of things about that one. Yes, I do think there's a lot of weight around that word. And I don't claim to be an anarchism expert. You know, I haven't read all the history around it. I have read some books. I lived in an intentional kind of hippie commune for most of my 20s.
Annie Boheler [00:08:15]:
So I have a lot of lived experience around organic, collectivist, process living. And that is what anarchism really is. Anarchism is not about chaos or violence. However, the structure of anarchism in my mind mimics how nature works. So we're a part of nature. We live in cultures that tend to value order more than chaos. And in nature, all of nature is a very balanced order and chaos situation. There's chaos happening and order and back and forth.
Annie Boheler [00:08:58]:
And that's the balance of nature and life and death and these cycles that we live through in our lives. Such a precious experience to get to be alive. And I think that's the kind of activating point around anarchism is just that it's, it's not about more chaos than order. It's just acknowledging that chaos is creativity. Chaos is the messiness. Chaos is the stuff that gets stirred up in a psychedelic experience, for example, that then we can reorder. Okay, what do I want to prioritize in my life? Some stuff got stirred up or we go through a breakup or we're going through new relationship energy. There's just like stirring up, right? And that stirring up allows for movement and it allows for growth and change.
Annie Boheler [00:09:54]:
And change is inevitable, really. It's the only thing we can actually know is going to happen is change. So anarchism is a system that acknowledges this reality that change is the only thing we can count on. And so I do recommend a resource for folks who are curious about relationship Anarchy, which is there's a smorgasbord, someone made like this menu that's super beautiful. And you can check it out for like all different kinds of relationship structures. But it kind of spreads out these different things we get from our intimate relationship. Like you might share housing with someone, you might share sex and romance, you might share raising a family, you might share a business together, you might share caring for someone in your family, like an elder person. All of these things are different, intimate things we share with people.
Annie Boheler [00:10:54]:
And I think the way that we're socialized is to get most of those needs met from one person. And with relationship anarchy, anarchy, it's not necessarily about having any specific number of sexual partners. You could be exclusive with somebody sexually. But what it's about is acknowledging that everybody in our circle is valuable, regardless of if we're having sex with them or sharing romance. And that these other things we might share, like helping each other raise children or doing the a business together or sharing some financial things, we can do those things with people we're not having sex with too. So that's. That value system is a frame of reference that is very foundational in my life that I found, you know, very stabilizing really.
Deborah [00:11:53]:
So I just want to make sure I got this right. So what you're saying is that, that you can have different relationships, whether it's a business partnership, a living together relationship, a responsibility for either children or perhaps a garden, but living things, and there's not really. All of these relationships are valuable and all of them have. It sounds like an equal weight when it comes to looking for priority. Would you say that's accurate?
Annie Boheler [00:12:33]:
Yeah, it's a good way to put it. And I, going back to what you said, I think it hasn't been brought up so much because it can surface level, I think seemingly conflict with traditional monogamous relationships. And I just don't think they have to. I think a lot of polarization happens with like monogamy versus open relating. And if I do anything well in my work, I hope to help bridge this like polarization or this false dichotomy. Because however many sexual partners somebody chooses to have is a very personal decision. There can be pressure. Now, culture shift like open relating or non monogamy coming up, like, oh, that's like a more evolved way to be.
Annie Boheler [00:13:22]:
And that's, that's this prosthetic proselytization that sometimes happens. And just I hope that everyone, you know, if you get one thing out of this, you know, listening to this, is that like, there's no right or wrong. It's all about being authentic. And I think that for me, yeah, the. One of my main supports in referencing, like, the relationship anarchy values and structure is if I have a friend who I want in my life, even if I'm not super romantic or sexual with them, that person's feelings are. Deserve to be cared for equally as if somebody I am sharing, you know, a physical. More physical relationship with or something I.
Deborah [00:14:13]:
Know, at least in many, you know, female relationships. Like, it can be a really tight, loving relationship, and then like, somebody has a love interest and that shifts and there's. There's a lot of support for that shift and a lot of support for that, like, you know, letting go of that friendship or at least devaluing it so that this one, you know, romantic relationship becomes the focal point. And I think, as you pointed out, that puts so much pressure on that relationship, you know, in. When I. When I. In my work with clients, oftentimes they'll come and they'll be like, oh, yeah, you know, we want to. We want to open up our relationship.
Deborah [00:15:03]:
And everybody has their own version of what that means, right? From becoming, you know, more oriented towards, you know, going to parties together, actually having different relationships that are. That are different from the. The primary relationship or dating together or whatever. And one of the things I find really interesting is this, that, you know, as. As the primary relationship becomes less the focus, that there is more space for, you know, for. For men to have more men in their lives, for women to have more women in their lives, and, you know, everything in between. But it is a really interesting, like, unpeeling of the. Of the primary.
Deborah [00:15:57]:
Not. It doesn't. I wouldn't say it's weakening the primary. It's just like, taking some of the stress off. I know that, like, for myself, my partner is, like, happy when I go off with my bestie. You know, if we haven't seen each other in a while, he's like, you know, it's about time you guys hang out, because there is a certain kind of nourishment I get there that I just don't get with him, you know, which isn't to say it's. It's just different. And, you know, going to your plant analogy, it's like plants need all sorts of different nourishment, and so do we.
Deborah [00:16:38]:
And I think it's really hard on. On relationships especially, you know, trying to mold everything into having one person. So I'm curious, like, in your. The way that you do first of all I'm curious, like, when did you start sort of moving away from, from the more monogamous, more standard version of relationship? And what was that like for you?
Annie Boheler [00:17:08]:
I don't have a whole lot to say around that just because I. There wasn't a lot of moving away because I realized I wanted to be open relating when I was like 19. Because when I was 19 or 18, I. Around there I realized I was into women and men and I'm bisexual and I. It was just kind of clear to me that like I didn't ever feel like I should have to choose. I'm like, oh, this is like a gift. Like, I'm so glad I know this about myself. It's probably going to be difficult.
Annie Boheler [00:17:41]:
Like it's an extra complication. Like there's been times in my life where I've had so much stress around the open relating because I'm connected with someone who preferred, prefers, like leans more towards the monogamy side of things where I've. I like parade. I wish I could be monogamous just because it is more complex. It is, you know, in our, in our explicitly romantic lives. But yeah, I think Jessica Fern's book that came out on open relating really secure a few years ago. One huge piece I got out of that was around open relating for some people being a choice, a lifestyle choice and for some people being like a need. And so for me it's a need.
Annie Boheler [00:18:32]:
Like I've realized over the years, I, it. I need that security that I'm autonomous and that I'm really choosing and not like obligated because of a commitment to be with someone. And the open relating for me ensures this is an actual choice because there's no structure that's that I've created that I have to be in this relationship. So that's how I kind of relate to that in that personal way. But I will say most of my adult life has been a monogamous. And I got this from Somatica Monogamy hangover because it just kind of over time with my partners like defaulting to a norm basically. And so that's where I've had a lot of struggle and stress in my relationships is like once we get in, you know, super entwined with someone in our lives, how much are we choosing it for ourselves and the other. That's a constant balancing act.
Deborah [00:19:39]:
So I'm wondering if you could just take a moment and say, you know, say a little bit more about what a monogamy hangover might be.
Annie Boheler [00:19:47]:
Sure, yeah. It's like one of my favorite phrases. And once again, not trying to polarize or feed that false dichotomy with like open relating to monogamy. But we are all swimming in a culture of monogamy. I mean, I moved to the Bay Area of California when I was 19 and directly exposed to a lot of open relationship, lack of stigma there compared to Georgia where I grew up. And still though we live in a monogamously dominated culture. And so I think a monogamy hangover can look like a lot of things, including like my experience just kind of defaulting to monogamous norms because that's what's easier. Like, oh, it's, it's just less stress, there's less conversations to have.
Annie Boheler [00:20:40]:
It just creates this safety and we don't have to address these other topics. So that's what I've done a lot. And monogamy hangover can look like so many things. It can look like shame for wanting to be with somebody else. It can look like confusion around your attraction for someone else, thinking that's something against your partner. Like, as if we have a limited amount of attraction energy or something, we might run out.
Deborah [00:21:08]:
I can fuzzy there because I really, that is such an important thing about, you know, one of the unfortunate pieces that goes with monogamy is this idea that not only is your partner going to be everything, but like, you can't have any of these energies with anyone else.
Annie Boheler [00:21:27]:
Yeah.
Deborah [00:21:28]:
And, you know, I, I mean it, it's really unfortunate because it's like, not only do we then not get to experience our fullness, but like, you know, when we start to work with our part, you know, when we're in that really tight partnership, as things change, you know, as, as you were talking about, there's, there's nothing, you know, change is going to happen. Like, as we change, it's like we, instead of having a place to re. Energize that energy or being allowed to do that in other places, it's like, nope, right. Shut down now. There's, there's, there's no place else for it to go. And so I just, you know, it's one of the things that, you know, again, when I, when I sometimes work with clients, it's like they don't actually want other partnerships. They just want more freedom in what they're allowed to do, who they're allowed to be attracted to, whether they act on it or not.
Annie Boheler [00:22:32]:
Right. And so, yeah, totally. And it's, it's, you know, I think there's a lot of Layers to it. Which is why I'm just really appreciating this conversation. Because we in the United States of America, I think we live in a hyper individualistic culture. So it reinforces this nuclear family dynamic that was kind of invented. I mean, I think for me personally, I can't separate it from, like, certain aspects of capitalism. I can't separate it from certain aspects of misogyny.
Annie Boheler [00:23:08]:
But in the end, it's all a personal choice. But if we want to name, oh, I feel something beautiful towards someone, or allowing our own selves to actually feel that without shame and to really, truly build trust with a partner based off of, hey, I can say that person's attractive, and it doesn't mean I'm going to act on it if that's going against our agreement. But that spaciousness, to be honest, so we actually can be authentic with each other. Yeah, it's just a really juicy conversation, I think, to normalize. Thank you.
Deborah [00:23:46]:
Yeah. I recently saw something on Instagram about some. Somebody was saying, you know, if the woman, you know, if my man looks at another woman, you know, she just needs to look out because I'll be on her. And I'm just like, are you kidding me? You know, first of all, you need to talk to your man about that.
Annie Boheler [00:24:05]:
If he.
Deborah [00:24:06]:
And I've got air quotes here. Your man, right? That possessiveness does not serve us. I mean, it can be really hot in a scene, you know, it can be hot in a very controlled way. But, like, when we bring that level of possessiveness, you know, to relationships, it can really shut things down. It can, you know, because then we stop being authentic. Our authentic selves. Then we stop bringing that part of ourselves to the. To the, you know, to the relationship, to the bedroom, to that place, you know.
Annie Boheler [00:24:46]:
Right.
Deborah [00:24:47]:
Because it's not. It's. It's shamed. It becomes dangerous.
Annie Boheler [00:24:52]:
Right. You start walking on eggshells. And with that example, it's like, what does that example say about how those of us who are socialized in, you know, with internal genitalia, basically, like having this female competition towards each other? It's like, well, that just with that one example you gave, it's like, okay, well, what does that say about how there's all this weight put on to what a. What the woman does and not the man? Like, ultimately the person you are in a relationship with. So, yeah, I think through media and lots of, you know, so many things, like, I think we've been socialized a bit around competition and a scarcity mentality all over the place.
Deborah [00:25:46]:
And I would add that, you know, this idea that like, that's how you know someone loves you is that like they're jealous, they're, you know, they've, there's, they're angry or there's something. I mean, that's not a really, that's not, it's not a great measure of, of love. I mean, again, it can be really hot in a, in a scene or a situation, you know, in a. And it can be really sexy. But when it's outside of those realms, it can be dangerous. It can be, you know, traumatic behavior.
Annie Boheler [00:26:27]:
Yeah, absolutely. And, and also it doesn't mean we don't have those feelings. I, as someone who's been actively openly relating Since I was 19, I like to share with people. I still get insecure and jealous. I still have these feelings. I have more skills around how to not have my life be derailed because of them and how to communicate around them and how to be compassionate towards myself and my friends and lovers around that. But I still get insecure around those sort of things. It's just about not having a select few feelings be more weighted than other feelings.
Annie Boheler [00:27:12]:
All of my feelings are equally valuable in my life. And I, you know, want to just kind of take a moment and drop into this current event because of what you just named. Because earlier today I just found out about sometime in the last one or two days this violence happened in Sydney, Australia at a mall where there were, I believe, five women who were stabbed and by a man. And there's some conversation around some incel. Like talk coming from this person around this subject in a way around, you know, his, you know, was specifically targeting women. They're calling it femicide, where that's. Was a part of why this event happened. And I just want to take a moment to, you know, for the loss of these people in this situation recently.
Deborah [00:28:28]:
Yeah, so that is a really, that, I mean, that is a very real experience. And you know, the violence towards women, the commodification towards women, the pressure on men to be a certain way, you know, when we are trying to fit ourselves into boxes or that that don't fit us and when we don't mirror what it is that, you know, we're, we feel like we're supposed to do, whether it be, you know, the hyper doing, not feeling masculine or the other side of that, you know, the very receptive feminine. And you know, when, when, when we don't acknowledge that there's more to us than just these things, you know, the shame comes Up. And when we don't have other tools, when we don't have the tools for shame, when we don't have the tools for jealousy, when we don't have the tools for regulating ourselves and our nervous systems, you know, bad traumatic stuff happens. I. You know, and unfortunately, right now we are in a world where there's a lot of traumatic experiences going on. I'm curious, like, with some of your trainings, because you've definitely got a wide variety of tools. What, what kinds of tools do you have for.
Deborah [00:30:13]:
For shame, particularly?
Annie Boheler [00:30:19]:
That's a good question. One thing I will ask when it comes up to clarify or for another person to help clarify for themselves is that difference between shame and guilt. You know, and because some, sometimes it shows up as shame, and then when we get into the conversation, they might realize actually there's it's more guilt. Or it could be both. And being able to understand, okay, if it's guilt, does this feel connected to a specific thing I did or said or a person or something I didn't do? And really helping folks understand that that is care. Like, we can, you know, guilt signifies care, and then that gives us something to do. You know, we can have that conversation or we can try to repair that harm that happened. And then with shame, you know, I think just sometimes acknowledging it, being witness that this is something, you know, that exists can be enough.
Annie Boheler [00:31:32]:
Like witnessing it and being like, I see you and I hear you and I value you just the same. You know, in this moment around this, nothing's changed in how much I respect you or care about you and see you as a whole person. And I think that that can kind of help, like, neutralize it a little bit. And then also because of this meta perspective with like, this, you know, politics and our current global, you know, challenges, I really like to reference those things. You know, I feel like, you know, I saw having a little bit of like, worthiness challenges sometimes or, you know, however the shame might be, be showing up, really helping put it in perspective of like, well, you know, where did that actually come from and what is triggering that? Because there's so much in the world today that can trigger that. It's understandable.
Deborah [00:32:45]:
I just want to. I. So I love the conversation of the difference between shame and guilt, and I just want to make it super explicit. So it sounds like guilt is more about something you done or not done, and shame is about more about who you are. Did I get that right?
Annie Boheler [00:33:04]:
Yeah. I mean, I don't know if this is like the technical definition, but I think that guilt often is in reference to that relational space. Like I feel guilty for something and how it affected someone else. And that relational space is a place where there's all that juice to repair and to grow and to move through conflict in a better way and learn how to be in conflict, you know, And I think shame, you know, I do think it's still relational. I just think it has, it can be. It can more easily move into an isolating space. And I think isolation is where like trauma or that's just like that kind of those weighty things can really fester, really, if we're not sharing with other people. I think shame can inherently be isolating to some degree.
Annie Boheler [00:34:04]:
Like I'm a bad person as opposed to I did a bad thing.
Deborah [00:34:10]:
Yeah, that was kind of what I was trying to suss out there is how you were using those two things. So I'm curious like in relationship, in terms of the, you know, when you talk a little bit more about, I'm curious more about like how, how relationship anarchy works for you. And so, and, and things like, you know, do you, do you desire a long term live in partnership or. And if you, and if that's part of the thing, how does that work in sort of the more relation relationship anarchy world or your version of it?
Annie Boheler [00:34:55]:
Sure, yeah. Yeah. And I appreciate the like nesting partner or live in that. That, you know, is something particular. And I am with somebody who I've been with almost 10 years and we've gone through different iterations of, and chapters of the relationship. And you know, I think that's where we're at now also in a different one than we were a few years ago. And I don't live with that person right now. And I do desire that.
Annie Boheler [00:35:36]:
But for me, what I desire most is to have to stay in relationship with this person and other people. I'm close within my life. I don't necessarily. For me, a part of relationship anarchism is letting go of my preferences while also honoring my preferences. Like I have, you know, preferences like this would be great if my fairy tale life turned out like this. But I don't get to decide that. You know, the people in my life, they have their own preferences. There's many things happening in the world.
Annie Boheler [00:36:12]:
I live in California where I'm with people. A lot of my close people are from here as well. But all my family is thousands miles away. So if I need to go spend some quality time, which could be years at some point with my family, you know, that may or may not look like those people following me. So I think that's been a big part of it for me too. Living so far away from my family, just being really real. Like, do I need to find someone who would follow me if I left California? You know, is that a value of mine? So I desire to build things with people, for sure. I desire to, you know, create space for safe community, whatever that looks like.
Annie Boheler [00:36:59]:
I really appreciate farming and gardening. And so I share those values with the people close to me. And yeah, I just, I think a lot of it's kind of letting go of those preferences and finding a compromise without compromising our values. But it might be a compromise and how it shows up, like how we organize our lives.
Deborah [00:37:27]:
Yeah, no, I. I appreciate you bringing up, you know, partly the values conversation because that is a big part of, you know, why people come together in relationship. You know, what is it they're valuing and what is it that they're wanting to create? And I'm curious. So consent is also a big conversation and part of relationship in general and relational experience. And I'm wondering if you'd like to talk a little bit about consent.
Annie Boheler [00:38:04]:
Sure. Yeah. I think that that's obviously, hopefully a value for everyone. But with considering our cultural context of, you know, that we're swimming into some degree of monogamy, if we have some social pressure to behave in a certain way or to lean towards certain values or relationship structures, it can get murky sometimes in how much we're like choosing and how much there is consent. And when we normalize not having explicit consensual conversations, we can have a tendency sometimes to get on the relationship escalator and just be going in a linear, escalated fashion towards more expectations or more whatever in a relationship without actually having explicit consent. And you look back at the last few months or the last few years and realize you didn't even talk about some of these things that you're doing. You didn't actually consent. Or maybe a more accurate way to put it would be that it would be passive consent and which could be a preference for some people.
Annie Boheler [00:39:26]:
So there's no judgment there, but just bringing in more awareness around our like tendencies and how we've been socialized. And it is from at least me is not about consent. I wasn't taught hardly anything about consent actively or explicitly. So yeah, I think that that's huge. And you know, when we're with someone, and I love this idea of in any relationship, exclusive, open, whatever, anywhere in between, that having like a check in once a year if you're in a long term relationship and you know, once a year, like, hey, how's it going for you? How are these agreements? How is it, you know, is there anything that's been on your mind and, and normalizing that con, you know, active, ongoing consent in any relationship that's going to help your sex life, that's going to help your general health, that's going to help your communication with your partner or partners. And you know, I think it's only going to help absolutely.
Deborah [00:40:27]:
I, I think, you know, in the couples work that I do, one of the biggest things I see is that things have changed and yet there's been no acknowledgment, no conversation, no reality check on where each other are. And especially in the sexuality realm, you know, I've. A lot of the clients I see and I don't know if this is true for you, but a lot of the clients I see that have, you know, differentiating sex drives, it's often that one person is not getting the kind of sexual experience that works for them. And so it's not that they don't have desire, they just don't have desire for what's been happening. And it goes back to, you know, the check in the consent conversation and also just like, you know, sort of this idea that when we're partnered we have our, our access. Part of being partnered is access to our partners bodies. And that's been a really interesting conversation that I've been having a lot lately with my clients is like, you know, one partner may not want to be touched that way or they don't like the way they're being touched, but they're not able to, to, you know, they don't have the autonomy, they don't have the, they don't have the belief that they can even say no because it's their partner. And that's what's supposed to happen in relationships.
Deborah [00:42:03]:
So I love what you're talking about with, you know, having a check in, having a, you know, having the conversations and you know, for some people really just actually asking themselves, is this what I, you know, do I like this? Do I not like this can be, you know, can be an absolute game changer for, for themselves in the relationship.
Annie Boheler [00:42:28]:
Absolutely. Thank you so much for bringing that up because I think, you know, as I mentioned before, I think a kind of gem piece in these conversations is taking away this polarization with these different relationship structures. It's like, I hope everybody just feels free to do relationships as it suits them and there's no right or wrong. There's no more evolved than others. Like all relationship structures are equally valuable and beautiful. And when you're in a open or polyamorous or non monogamous relationship, if you're doing it in a very honest way, it forces you to have certain conversations that we're not forced to do when we're doing monogamy in the way that most of us were taught. And so that does come down to consent and having really explicit forward conversations and check ins and not running off of assumptions. And so I do think there are some things that the monogamous world can take from that.
Annie Boheler [00:43:46]:
You know, all of us deserve to be in those kind of consensual relationships. And when we normalize that, there's just so imagine how much more we can get out of our relationships and like how, how much we can explore. Yeah, I, it's amazing to me working with couples sometimes like who have been together for years and there's in the work, you know, fantasies come out that they haven't felt comfortable sharing with their partner. And so I do, you know, I think with the work that we do and this is a hope and helping create safe space for people to share what they want with their partners. If or at least have that be a choice, like there's safe place in the relationship. Some people might want to keep certain fantasies just to themselves, which is fine too, but it at least being a choice.
Deborah [00:44:39]:
Absolutely. Choices. It's so interesting because sometimes we don't even know that we have it right. And I think that's one of the big pieces for a lot of clients and is learning their own choice, whether it be to have a different kind of relationship structure or to, you know, be able to actually share some of the things that have been on their hearts have been in their fantasies for a really long time. So in a minute I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask you if there was one thing that you wanted people to get from our conversation, what might that be? I also want to know. Let people know what you're working on. But first I want to let people know how they can support the Better Sex podcast. And you know, as you can tell, sex is a complex subject and it can make or break a relationship.
Deborah [00:45:34]:
And unfortunately, most of us don't grow up in the kind of environment we're talking about. Sex is welcome. And that's why I'm offering the lab. It is an opportunity for coaching to ask questions in a group setting. And let's face it, a podcast is just not enough. You have to have practice. You have to have the ability to practice what it is that we're preaching. So if you're ready for tools and tips and exercises, you can learn more to go to the show notes.
Deborah [00:46:09]:
You can either book a consultation call or sign right up for the, the lab, the relationship lab. So because you know, life is too short for bad sex and crappy relationships. So I'm going to come back to you and curious, what is it that you want people to get out of our conversation?
Annie Boheler [00:46:32]:
Yeah. And yeah, I love that. I love that laboratory. That's where we get the practice in. So beautiful. Yeah, thank you. I think a final kind of just statement or feeling around this for me is as I was saying to you before we were recording too, I went through the Somatic Experiencing program and it's been a couple years since then. And so now I'm really integrating this trauma informed lens as opposed to kind of being in it all the time when I'm studying it, working through my own stuff.
Annie Boheler [00:47:16]:
And so a signature of trauma is polarization. Good, bad, right, wrong, us, them, that is, you know, it doesn't leave a lot of room for growth, change, connection, empathy. And so whether you're thinking about the, you know, relationship structure, open versus closed or exclusive and not, I just invite folks to also consider another lens which is simply this choicefulness we were talking about this authenticity and consent. When we are valuing these things, whatever structure is right for each individual in each moment, which could change, is going to just emerge. We don't have to figure out relationship structure we want in each moment necessarily or throughout our lives as that might change. But when we are valuing ourselves, being able to be safe in relationships, being able to play and have good sex, which we can do when we're feeling safe and when we want ourselves and the people in our communities and families to be authentic, you know, that's, that's what we're going to be talking about are, are all those things, those fun things and the consent and conversations that create that space.
Deborah [00:48:58]:
Beautiful. Thank you. So, and where can people find you?
Annie Boheler [00:49:04]:
You can find me@lovagesomatics.com and that's the best way to reach me as direct contact in there. You can just book directly a free 20 minute consultation call. Yeah, and I'll do a little plug as well for a side project I have which is kind of going into this meta space again in this conversation around what's happening in the psychedelics coming into mental health field, which is quite abundant in what's happening, lots of movement there. I've created a meta directory so a lot of folks are getting funneled into directories to work with therapists and practitioners. I myself am a practitioner with have about 15 years of experience with psychedelics. But this meta directory is a place to help folks connect with all sorts of different resources including grassroots, including business friendly or psychedelic friendly businesses. If you want to be an ally to your young child or like teenage or adult child who might be experimenting with things, how to learn. So the website is friends of psychedelics.org and this is a place where we hope people can be educated and educate themselves for, you know, whatever sort of mental health journey and that they might be on.
Deborah [00:50:44]:
Beautiful. Thank you. And those will be in the show notes. I had a question. I'm super curious. So that your website, Lovage Somatics is. Is that Levage the, the herb or.
Annie Boheler [00:51:00]:
Where did that come. Yeah, yeah. Thank you for asking. And I'm yeah, it's got love in the name. Lovage is an herb that it's, you know, from a superficial stance, might kind of look and taste a little bit like celery. It's a great spice. And I, you know, having Most of my 20s in this intentional community called Bean Creek, I, I learned about psychedelics in the traditional context of herbalism and community. And so I studied herbalism.
Annie Boheler [00:51:39]:
I worked as an herbalist for about five years and studied permaculture and regenerative living completely intertwined with psychedelics and learning about living in community. So that name Lovage I get from that herbalism background. Yeah.
Deborah [00:51:58]:
Thank you. I meant to ask you earlier but it's perfect timing. So I just want to say thank you so much. Please follow Annie on social media and find her at her her websites. They will be in the show notes. And again, if you want to bring more love and better sex worldwide, please subscribe. Like comment. If you know somebody who this interview would be helpful to, please help share the word.
Deborah [00:52:33]:
More love, better sex, happier world. Thank you so much and I'll see you on the other side.
Annie Boheler [00:52:41]:
Thanks Deborah. Thank you.