Expanding the definition of orgasm with Susan Bratton
In this episode of The Better Sex Podcast, I talk with Intimacy Expert to millions and best-selling Author Susan Bratton who brings her personal stories of receiving adoration to our discussion of expanding the definition of orgasm. During this fun and insightful conversation, we delve into the importance of knowledge, vulnerability, and meticulous scheduling to navigate different kinds of complex relationships while touching on the significance of adoration as a fundamental human desire that society often suppresses.
Susan sheds light on the benefits of oxytocin, the need for more time and stimulation to achieve arousal and the essential role of foreplay. We discuss various techniques to make intercourse orgasmic for women and Susan shares some of her expanded orgasm practices to enhance intimate experiences.
Along the way we discuss how to hold sexual energy, setting personal boundaries, and the significance of ongoing sexual education. Join us for this enlightening conversation that challenges traditional views and empowers listeners to prioritize their own desires and pleasure.
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In our commitment accessibility, help make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who like to read rather than listen to podcasts. The transcription is far from perfect, and in some cases quite amusing. As we grow edited transcripts are on the list in the meantime please enjoy.
Susan [00:00:00]:
They move it around.
Deborah [00:00:02]:
All right, so I am so glad you're here. All right. Welcome to the Better Sex podcast. My name is Deborah Kat, and I am your shameless host. This is the better Sex podcast where we have unfiltered conversations about sex and relationship. This show is about helping you figure out what works for you so you can have better sex on your terms. I truly believe that a sexy world creates a happier world and a safer world. If you want to do your part in creating a safe and sexy world, please hit like subscribe and leave a comment wherever you get your podcasts.
Deborah [00:00:50]:
So today we are going to dive into the world of my guest, Susan Bratton. She is a champion and advocate for the desire for ageless desire. She's a best selling author and publisher of 44 books and programs, including sexual soulmates, relationship magic, revive her drive, and the steamy sex ed video collection. She is the co founder of both personal Life Media and the 20. As an authority in bedroom techniques and communication, she has skills as well as a non evasive treat. Sorry about that. Let me try that one more time. All right, so first of all, did I pronounce your name right?
Susan [00:01:51]:
Yeah, Susan Bratton.
Deborah [00:01:52]:
Susan Bratton. Okay. Sometimes, you know, that's. Sometimes when I get nervous, that's the thing, so. All right. Welcome to the Better Sex podcast. My name is Deborah Catt and I am your shameless host. This is the better Sex podcast where we have unfiltered conversations about sex and relationship.
Deborah [00:02:16]:
This show is about helping you figure out what works for you so that you can have better sex on your terms. I truly believe that a sexy world creates a happier and safer world. And if you want to do your part to create a safe and sexy world, please hit like subscribe and leave a comment wherever you get your podcasts. Today we're going to dive into the world of my guest, Susan Bratton. She is a champion and advocate for those who desire ageless passion. She's a best selling author and publisher of 44 books and programs, including sexual soulmates, relationship magic, revive her drive, and the steamy sex ed video collection, just to name a few. She is the co founder of both personal life, media and the 20. She is an authority in bedroom techniques, communication skills, as well as non evasive treatments that improve vitality for both men and women.
Deborah [00:03:23]:
I am absolutely thrilled to have her with me today. Thank you so much for joining us. Welcome, Susan.
Susan [00:03:31]:
Hi, Deborah. Cat, it's great to see you. I've been excited to have our podcast recording. We had such a nice kind of an initial meeting, and we were so aligned in so many things that I knew that this was just going to be a delight. So I've been working hard all day, waiting for our time. Happy to be here.
Deborah [00:03:50]:
Beautiful. Thank you so much. And I know that there's so many different ways this conversation could go, but one of the things that I personally love to talk about, and I think it's incredibly important to talk about, is orgasm. And I'm curious. Let's just start out and jump in. So I just want to be really clear. When I'm talking about orgasm, I'm literally talking about when we start getting turned on, that orgasmic energy, as well as the build up into climax and down again. And I'm curious, like, is that a definition that resonates with you, or do you think of it a little differently?
Susan [00:04:36]:
Well, I kind of think about that construct of orgasm as what I would consider to be kind of the classic 1960s masters and Johnson chart, where you climb up, you have your orgasm, and then you kind of fall off, and there's this refractory period. And I actually think about that as being more of a male oriented, ejaculatory orgasm style. And I think that that's a rather old fashioned and limiting purview or perspective on orgasm. And some of the things that I like to give people as ideas are the difference between a single orgasm, you know, that old style, ejaculatory type of thing, like the more male oriented, you know, how everything is always about the man, and then we're just supposed to, like, fit into it, and that's supposed to be what we take as women. And I just. I just don't think that's true at all. I think women have. I think all bodies can orgasm in 20 or more different ways, no matter what equipment you have.
Susan [00:05:52]:
And I think that, you know, some of us have penises and we're more testosterone dominant, and some of us have vulvas, and we might be more estrogen dominant, but that's kind of changing, too, now in the world. And then there's also something that my friend Doctor Nan wise has been recently teaching me about the brain, which is our biggest sex organ in house. Some people have a heavier filamenture, like a laying down of testosterone signaling in their brain. And other people have a heavier oxytocin signaling in their brain. And it doesn't necessarily correspond to male versus female genital gender hormone profiles. And then I think a lot about the work that she's done with putting women in an MRI and having their partners touch different parts of their genitals and breast tissue and how it lights up different parts of the brain. And then I think about some of the research that's done on women and how they like to be touched and how for some women, being touched in one place makes them, you know, is, like, numb or shame or pain. And for other women, being touched in that place feels pleasurable.
Susan [00:07:07]:
And when I think about just all that stuff, I. I think about, oh, and I want to add a couple more things about orgasm to it, because I think there are these facets of orgasm that get us to think much bigger about it. One of them is that I think there are three types of orgasm. There's 20 kinds of orgasm, and they kind of fall into three categories. One category is locations to touch, like your clit or your penis. Another category of orgasm is what I would call orgasmic techniques. And in that category, I would put things like orgasmic meditation, erotic hypnosis, you know, what I would call expanded orgasm. Even things like G spot de armoring and female ejaculation and things like that, where generally you're going to need some technique to have your body learn the effect.
Susan [00:08:11]:
And then the third category is objects of desire. And that could be anything from sex tools that activate different parts of the structures of the genital structures. Like, there's eight different types of sex tools. There's eight categories of sex tools that females can use. Vulva owners can use that. They stimulate different areas, so they activate different areas, so they send signals to different parts of the brain, and you can bring them online. You can add more and more and more activation. There's four for the male body and or the penis owner.
Susan [00:08:54]:
And so I think about not just sex tools, but also objects of desire, such as fetish wear, you know, impact play, things that are more in the kink and bdsm world. Electro stim. I mean, we have so many paths to orgasm, and then I want to add another piece onto it, which is. Is I've thought a lot about orgasm, which is this notion that there's not just that old refractory masters and Johnson's from the 60, 60 year old stuff now, because we're in 2024, but that we can do these, you know, we can become multi orgasmic and we can have expanded orgasms. So the difference being I have one and I'm done, or I can have a series of orgasms, or I can take the moment of orgasm, moment of orgasm, that climax, that peak of that old masters and Johnson, you know, chart. Orgasm chart. And I can take that moment and I can stretch that moment out in time, like Taffy. I can just pull time so that I'm able to get into orgasm and stay there and just keep coming.
Susan [00:10:18]:
And then I can stack those. And each subsequent one that I'm having be longer and longer can also become more and more intense. And that's where you get into an expanded orgasm practice, or what I like to call kind of like a quantum orgasm. You know, it just keeps growing and going out further and further. And so when you think about orgasm, like the old masters and Johnson one and done, a lot of women are stuck in that paradigm. So are men. A lot of people are stuck in that paradigm because that's what they think orgasm is. When you start hearing me talk about 20 kinds of orgasms and all the different ways to activate and the different kinds of orgasm, you know, this different timing of orgasm, all this stuff, you're like, oh, shit, there might be more here than I.
Susan [00:11:04]:
More here to this than I thought. And that's what I like to do, is I like to teach people to come in all these different ways and just to be, like, super comfortable being very orgasmic and being really confident about it and having lots of different orgasms during either a solo pleasuring session or a love making session. From coregasms to footgasms to brain gasms to breathgasms to all the things, you know, all the other ones that I've mentioned, there's so many different kinds. So I just think there's a lot of territory to advance into with regard to pleasure. And I'll finish off by saying that in our world today, it is so frigging stressful that we must have pleasure, because pleasure, the opposite of pleasure, is called anhedonia, the lack of pleasure. Something else nan wise taught me. And when you have a lack of pleasure, you have your nerve. Your nervous system is.
Susan [00:12:12]:
It's a rough ride. Your life is flattened, your moods are flattened. You might be depressed, anxious. You might have difficulty sleeping, because all of that stress creates cortisol. And cortisol. It's adrenaline. Adrenaline, it might keep you going, but you're frantic and you never recover, and you can't get good sleep. And then the next day, you're not as good, and you don't feel as strong and you don't feel as great as if you've had incredible pleasure counteracting all of that stress so that you can regulate your system and have a more calm, happy, pleasurable life.
Deborah [00:13:00]:
Yeah. So orgasm is an important part of life and bringing in pleasure and being able to regulate the nervous system. And as you mentioned, you know, we are living in an incredibly stressful time. And so the more that we can invite, you know, practice, have pleasure, the better.
Susan [00:13:27]:
Yeah.
Deborah [00:13:28]:
How would you say that orgasm, that pleasure generally, and orgasm in particular, supports relationships?
Susan [00:13:40]:
Well, first thing that it does is it allows you to co regulate, so you're calming each other down. The second thing that it does is a big oxytocin dump. And it has been said. I don't know if this is true. I've read this a few times, and I don't know whether that's one of those, you know, like, telephone tag things where, you know, urban legendy repeats itself or not, but that women actually produce more oxytocin than men. And oxytocin is the antidote to cortisol. It's like the thing that leavens the bread on that. And when you have orgasms, you're generating oxytocin.
Susan [00:14:18]:
Now, one of the interesting things about oxytocin is it's a hormone. It's a very powerful hormone. So melatonin and oxytocin are two of the things that lower cortisol and help you get that sleep and that recovery and that calming experience. And what's interesting about it is that you actually make oxytocin in the gut. You make a lot of your hormones and neurotransmitters in your gut and in the gut and brain kind of axis. And the problem is that if you're on successive rounds of antibiotics and things like that, often you're killing off the gut bacteria that are actually required to produce oxytocin. So then even when you're having intimacy, if you don't have a good gut microbiome, you're not getting the full effect of the intimacy. There's a bacteria, it's called lactobilis ruderi, and it is the bacteria that is required to produce oxytocin.
Susan [00:15:18]:
Another thing that it does is it keeps your waist trim and it regulates insulin, and it's very good for people who are working on weight loss, interestingly so, it has a lot of help for people who are pre diabetic and who have insulin dysregulation, which a lot of people do these days. Now, anything from fatty livers and fatty pancreases and things like that. And so lactobilis ruteride, the way that I take lactobilis ruderi is I get this supplement called gut to glow. And one of the interesting things about it is that lactobilisrudorite also helps your skin. It makes your skin beautiful. It whittles your waist, helps you with insulin, and helps you produce oxytocin. It's quite interesting. It has a lot of different features and gut to glow.
Susan [00:16:06]:
It's by oxy suitix. And I just open up some capsules and I put it in my yogurt maker with my half and half, and I culture my own yogurt. And that's what I make my morning smoothies out of. So I went from being a very low oxytocin person, having had, you know, before we knew antibiotics were so bad for you, having a lot of oxytocin. And what's interesting is that I'm very, um, close to my partner, and we spend a lot of time touching. He gives me incredible yoni massages multiple times a week, and gives me orgasm after orgasm, after orgasm after orgasm. And I remember I was with. I was with him for about five weeks in Europe.
Susan [00:16:51]:
And then I went off for ten days to London to work on a film, on a documentary that I'm working on. And I felt flat after a few days. I was so used to pumping massive amounts of oxytocin. I run a lot of oxytocin. And I was like, why am I in London working on this documentary when I should be? And I'm not lonely, I'm seeing people, I'm feeling good. And I went, oh, it's the fact that I'm not co creating this oxytocin with my partner. My body is missing it. And it was.
Susan [00:17:31]:
It was stark for me because I have a steady diet of a lot of physical touch. And then it got taken right away. And I literally felt my world go flat. It was less bright, shiny, exciting. I was just dampened from the loss of the touch. So I think that there are a lot of people running around this world on antidepressants who simply need or anxiety medications, not that certain people don't need them. I'm not saying that. I am not saying that.
Susan [00:18:09]:
What I am saying is that I think there are a lot of people who may be on them who could benefit from getting their gut biosis, you know, their dysbiosis handled, and getting enough love and touch. And I know that for some people who don't have that, that feels like insurmountable obstacles. I do get that it's very lonely when you don't have a partner. And it feels daunting out there in the dating world. I know I am not. Just because I'm married doesn't mean I don't understand. I work with thousands and thousands of people and have for decades. So I understand.
Susan [00:18:51]:
But I also think that there are a lot of things that you can do to create opportunities in your life to have more loving, touching, holding, caressing, intimacy, connection in something as simple as a research partner, which is a phrase I am sure you're familiar with.
Deborah [00:19:12]:
I love that. Thank you so much for that research partner. We have so many. Our idea of what is possible in partnership is so limited. You know, we're either. We can either be friends or we can be, you know, lovers. And then, of course, there's the whole, you know, where does. Where can we have.
Deborah [00:19:35]:
Who can we have sex with? What kinds of relationship can we have sex with? But, you know, all of these rules and stories really are limiting. So I love that you're bringing up the idea of a research partner. And I also just want to say, you know, in now, granted, I do live in the Bay area, so we are definitely a huggy, squeezy, cuddly crew out here. And there are a lot of places where there are a lot of workshops, there are a lot of groups, there are a lot of ideas about how can we take loving touch in a platonic way. And, I mean, we now have a profession, not just in California, but, like, they're snuggle professionals and cuddle professionals. And, you know, on top of things like massage therapy or good old fashioned.
Susan [00:20:35]:
Sex workers, don't forget them.
Deborah [00:20:37]:
Oh, gosh.
Susan [00:20:37]:
I mean, nothing wrong with that.
Deborah [00:20:40]:
Absolutely. Absolutely. I think, you know, there is. There. There are places for all of these different, you know, needs, and there are people who will gladly support having more of this, you know, loving, safe, intimate touch. And I know for, you know, for me, certainly creating a situation where I can actually research or practice sexuality was kind of a game changer. Not only in, like, I think I started with just when I went to massage school. It was like having that massage partner and being able to trade and feel what felt good on my body and get feedback about, like, am I touching you in a way that felt good? You know, we do this in so many different areas of our life that, you know, the fact that we're not researching, the fact that more of us aren't openly researching sexuality and sensuality in this way has got to change.
Deborah [00:21:51]:
Like, let's change it.
Susan [00:21:52]:
You're changing it, girl. You are changing it. And remember that all of the religious repression, the societal shame, the lack of information, the fear based sex education, and I don't even call it sex education, really. That is about all that we get in our country is to keep us in line and to hold us down and to get us to, you know, be controlled by. When you. When you don't experience your sexuality, you want to do more things, like buy things to make yourself happy, go do things to make yourself happy, watch more media and, you know, spend your time in someone else's reality to make yourself happy. And so the incredible amount of censorship that I'm under for just teaching heart connected, conscious, passionate love making techniques, teaching people about intimate wellness, I mean, so many men now, they have, you know, terrible trouble with erectile dysfunction. Very young men now, because of all the ultra processed food, which is, again, addictive and hurts our microbiome and makes us depressed, it all, it all feeds into this religious, controlling, capitalistic society that we found ourselves caught in this net.
Susan [00:23:29]:
But the problem is, like a fish in water, often we don't realize how much we're being used and manipulated. We can't see the water that we're swimming in. So sex is the ultimate anarchy. And I am a sexual anarchist then, because I am a sovereign woman who celebrates my sexuality. I'm 62, and I've never had better sex my whole life. It keeps getting better. And one of the things that my mentor, who taught me expanded orgasm, which is similar to your experience with orgasmic meditation. My mentor, Doctor Patty Taylor, came from more house, as did Nicole de Doane, who started one taste, which she created the brand of orgasmic meditation, or om, the Om practice, but it's the same five stroke technique, just Nicole created a more transactional experience.
Susan [00:24:31]:
And what I've been teaching through my transmissions, my downloads from my mentor, Doctor Patty Taylor, from original Morehouse work, is more of a tantric lover's practice. I've had it with my husband for two decades. I've taught all my partners how to do it to me, too, including research partners. And I even have a partner that I go to that the only thing we do is he. He does me. And doing deliberate orgasm, d o is another word for this same practice. It's had, you know, many different versions of it. And I just go and have dates with him for, and he does me, and that's it.
Susan [00:25:10]:
And there's no, you know, expectation that we'll do more and we both enjoy it.
Deborah [00:25:17]:
Absolutely. I think, you know, for me, that was one of the most liberating things, is that I could ask for what I wanted. We could come together, it could be a practice, you know, an orgasmic meditation practice. I could get up off the mat, I could say thank you, and I could. And there was nothing else expected that he was, you know, completely satisfied in, you know, getting on this ride. And he knew what he was getting into. And I know for many of my, of the couples that I work with, one of the reasons they're not having sex, one of the reasons that they're not being affectionate with each other is every time he comes towards her, you know, she's, she's like, oh, I don't want to have sex, so I'm going to shut everything down.
Susan [00:26:10]:
Exactly.
Deborah [00:26:10]:
And it's, you know, it's, it's really hard on both parties because neither of them are getting their needs or wants metal, you know, and oftentimes it takes a while to support him in understanding that, like, you know, there's, we need to drop the expectation of sex at the door.
Susan [00:26:33]:
Yeah.
Deborah [00:26:34]:
And allow for the arousal to happen, allow for the, for all of the things in between penetrative sex to happen, you know, all of the, the kissing, the hugging, the flirting, the spanking, the pinching, the poking, you know, all of this stuff that happens or can happen before penetration. And so I'm curious, like, if you, if you found that and I'm imagining if you have, you've got some suggestions.
Susan [00:27:06]:
For it, you know, me well, never cat well, first of all, I, I think that, again, you know, I'm not dinging someone who wants to be religious, but there has just been a lot of religious repression. And one of the biggest things that has hurt women has been that it takes women generally 20 to 30 minutes to achieve their full erection. We have as much erectile tissue in our vulva as our male bodied partners do in their penis. And only half, about half the penis sticks out, the other half goes in and down, and the entire penis is filled with erectile tissue. Our vulva is filled with erectile tissue just as much as a penis, but it's not fast acting blood dynamics. It's slow moving blood dynamics because it's a lot of nooks and crannies that have to get filled up. Where a guy is testosterone dominant or woman is estrogen dominant, he wakes up with nocturnal erections. He wakes up with Morning wood.
Susan [00:28:05]:
He's just generally hornier. He's driven to masturbate every day because he needs to keep his semen topped up and all that is good for him. And that's great, but it's the only cues that we've seen are porn and the movies that show the masculine arousal ladder. And so it's not our guy's fault. It's nobody's fault. This is just the censorship of religion that has said that sex is for procreation only, and the only thing that matters is intercourse. And so this whole notion of foreplay and sex is skewed to me because it's the foreplay that really helps women get to the point where we're engorged enough. We've got our lady Boner so that sex actually feels good to us.
Susan [00:28:51]:
And we've mostly just been penetrated way too fast our whole lives. And we don't reach our orgasmic capacity. We don't have orgasms from intercourse because we're basically working with a flaccid clitoral structure that can't send enough signals to our brain, our biggest sex organ, to tell us to have orgasms. So once a couple understands a number of things, one, that you can't offer a woman intercourse. When you say sex, she knows it means intercourse. And when you offer her that, she's not there yet. And so she doesn't want it. So she says no, and you feel rejected.
Susan [00:29:28]:
And so instead, I think the real bridge is these expanded orgasm practices of these yoni massages, full body touch, words of adoration, kissing, breastplate, all of the things pleasuring, all of the things both giving and receiving that we need to get to full clitoral erection. So it feels as good for us. It does for the man. The second thing is understanding how to make intercourse orgasmic for her. Women think they just can't when they just haven't. All women can orgasm from intercourse. It is simply a learned skill. One of the things that I like to do is send people to orgasmic intercourse.com dot, where I have the ten techniques that will guarantee things she can do and things that he can do and information about how the vagina actually works for pleasure.
Susan [00:30:19]:
Because it's not an in. It's not like an inside out penis. It's not a sheath for a sword. It's totally different than that. But because all we see is porn in movies, and that's the masculine, patriarchal, you know, way of doing things. Nobody knows how to have intercourse that makes women come unless they got really lucky or she's really turned on or it's new relationship energy or what have you, it seems like it's so slim for women, and yet they think there's something wrong with them, that they can't do it, when in fact, it's just that they haven't been given what they need to do it. And as soon as they learn what that is, they start coming all the time and coming well and coming more and having expanded orgasms and all that kind of stuff. So I think people think they're supposed to know what to do, and I think we know what to do to make a baby, but we don't know what to do to make love.
Susan [00:31:12]:
And that's what gets us censored, and yet that's what we need the most. So that we want to, we don't want to watch tv and scroll social media. We want to snuggle and kiss and have orgasms and make love. And that's way more fun for us than the, than everyone else's agenda for us. You see how if we have great sex, we're not pawn in the cog of business anymore. And so really, the best thing you can do is be like, I want to learn all the things. Let's go.
Deborah [00:31:50]:
I really want to underline what you said. There is that we know naturally what to do to make a baby, but we don't necessarily naturally know what to do to have sex or to make love or to have a, to have orgasms and pleasure, because one is, as you were saying, more instinctual and the other actually takes time and attention. And I think that's one of the big, I don't know if myths is the right word for it, but one of the things that really brings up a lot of shame is this idea that I should know. I certainly grew up on a lot of harlequin romances, which basically the story of a. The bottom line with Harlequin romance is that my innocent self is going to meet up a rogue, a gentleman rogue, of course. And he's going to know exactly how to touch me in a way that I don't know how to touch myself. And so at least, you know, for a very long time, I really outsourced not only my pleasure, but, like, the knowing of what actually was going to feel good. And that put an expectation on my partners that was just unfair, because here we were trying to figure it out, and I'm looking to him to know what's going to feel good for me because.
Deborah [00:33:20]:
Why? He's the gentleman rogue.
Susan [00:33:24]:
Yep. I know. We have to figure it out for ourselves. I, last night, one of the things that I have been really, really getting off on lately is riding my husband cowgirl. I learned it about, I'm going to say, three years ago. So 20 years ago, I almost divorced my husband. We almost got divorced because we had that old. We were in that old paradigm where, you know, I was having sex with him, interrupted course, but I wasn't coming, and I didn't want to do it anymore.
Susan [00:33:58]:
And I was avoiding him for sex. And he was, you know, trying to get his needs met outside the marriage, and he was very unhappy. And then we went to therapy. But what really helped us was going to sex workshops, and that's what got me into the business of teaching passionate lovemaking techniques and selling programs and giving away free things to teach people how to have really hot sex. And I've been writing sex techniques now for two decades. And my kind of, like, trajectory was first I learned how to have orgasms with a vibrator on my client, and then he de armored my g spot, and I started having g spot orgasms. Then I learned ejaculation. I learned the pleasure of female ejaculation.
Susan [00:34:42]:
And then I was still really working on trying to have orgasms from intercourse. And we started being able to do that, and I started coming from intercourse, but it was always him penetrating me. It wasn't me taking control. And then, I don't know, I think it was like, maybe, I don't know, four or five years ago, I started getting stronger. That was only three years ago. I started getting really strong because I'd had Covid long haul really badly. And I hired a trainer to help me get my balance back and to start to be able to walk upstairs again and, you know, to get my strength back. I had been.
Susan [00:35:17]:
I'd become, like, emaciated from it. Like I'd lost all my muscle because I laid in bed for almost two years, and I didn't know if I'd live much, ever, much less ever walk again. And so my trainer, you know, he would come three days a week and really help. He helped me get on my feet again and everything. And then I just kept going and getting stronger and stronger and stronger and loving strength training and loving running the beach stairs and, you know, all this kind of stuff. And that's just been really, really nice, and it's given me just, like, a lot of stamina and, like, really nice, meaty, strong thighs. And so I can ride him, and it has allowed me to just kind of get on him and take my pleasure and do whatever feels good to me. And he just meets me.
Susan [00:36:04]:
He just rides my ride, you know, and that's been fantastic. And I've really, really loved that as well. And we integrate it. We incorporate a lot of sex toys into our pleasure. We do a lot. We do different stuff. Every time we have sex, it's different. But it almost always incorporates an expanded orgasm yoni massage because that's what I like to bring my engorgement in before we do anything else.
Susan [00:36:33]:
So sometimes I'll do other stuff. And as I've had better and better sex and gone longer and longer and gotten and I've come more easily, I've come in all these different ways and learned all these different techniques, and my confidence has improved and my orgasms gotten better and more intense and all that stuff. I've just really learned what feels good and realized how different it is in every moment. Because the other day, he was going down on me and he was going really lightly, and I was like, I need it even lighter. No, I need it even lighter than that. And it was almost like he was practically not even using his tongue. It was almost like he was using his breath on me and I was coming. And you become more sensitive, more easily orgasmic, more orgasmic in different ways.
Susan [00:37:33]:
And sometimes, yes, you want harder sensation. Other times it's the lightest. It's like that little stroke of the doing on the clit is all you need to just keep coming and coming and coming and coming. And I think if people thought about their sexuality that way, like, oh, wow, I've got so many things I could learn and be more confident, and then I could have all this different pleasure. And I think that's the real bottom line on this, is that that's the opportunity that is available to you sexually if you'd like to have it. And I think that just to close up on that, that a lot of people, they're like, but where do I start? Because people, as you know from your, you know, from your coaching practice, people come in at all different places in all different ways with all different desires, with all different problems. And so one of the things I did, I think, was, like, last year or the year before was I took, I put together 48 erotic play dates that you can do solo or partnered. And erotic playdates are different than sex because they're really, we're going to learn something.
Susan [00:38:49]:
We're going to learn something together instead of we're just going to have sex together. And so when you can get out of this notion of there's foreplay and sex and into, it's all sex, and then when you can get to the next level, which is, well, actually, it's all learning. So now what we do is we just are constantly learning together. So we're always experimenting and trying new things. What do you want to learn? So the sex life bucket list, which is@sexlifebucketlist.com is a downloadable PDF that actually, and I'd love to know what's on your bucket list. You download it and then you go through it. I give you a video and I walk you through what all the 48 things are and you mark it. A, b or c.
Susan [00:39:33]:
A is, yes, I definitely want this on my bucket list. B is if you want to do it, I'll do it with you. It wouldn't go on my bucket list, but I'm game to do it. And c is, it's not for me right now. Never say never. And then you kind of have a working list of the things you want to try. Like, oh, I want to de armor my g spot and have g spot orgasms, or I want to find my pee spot, or I want to do a lingerie photo shoot, or I want to learn shabari or whatever it might be. You know, I want to, I want to try this sex.
Susan [00:40:02]:
So I want to try to have a deep throating orgasm, you know, whatever it is. Then you have your little list and you can start working on them. You can work on things yourself. You can work on things with a partner.
Deborah [00:40:14]:
And this kind of brings me back to what we started to talk about, which is these practice partners or because, you know, even in a long term, especially in a long term partnership, you know, we're, the way I think about it is, you know, the practice ends when we die, right? Because this life thing is a practice. And being in relationship, it's, you know, a freaking opportunity for personal growth. Because, you know, there's nothing quite like being with someone you love and care about and being vulnerable to allow to get to learn all of those different ways in which we can trigger each other and all of those different ways that we can come back to love and come back to connection. And so I love your bucket list. I can just imagine printing it out, cutting out the different parts and putting them in a hat or something and pulling them out. In fact, that's going to be something I assign to. I have a couple in mind who's going to get that assignment, but I love just being able to practice. The biggest thing for practice for me is that there is no right or wrong.
Deborah [00:41:37]:
It's just information. It's like, oh, this time this is what happened. Let's try it again. This time this thing happened. Oh, we're getting better at it. It's getting easier. The orgasm is coming quicker. You've used the word de armoring a couple of times, and I just wanted to invite, just for people who are listening who may not be familiar with that term.
Deborah [00:42:02]:
What you mean by that?
Susan [00:42:03]:
Yeah, well, you know that book, the body keeps the score and how we hold our emotions. We store our emotions in our enteric nervous system and cells in our body that hold the memories of traumas. And because so many of us have had so many kinds of traumas in the sexual realm, whether it's shame or being touched without consent or inappropriately or bad dates gone wrong or unwanted pregnancies or sexual trauma and abuse or simple shaming or body image issues. I mean, the list goes on and on and on and on and on. And, you know, hardly anybody gets out of that alive. We all suffer from that. I think almost everyone. You can't really be in our culture and not have some suffering about it.
Susan [00:42:55]:
And it seems that the common wisdom is that, and I've definitely felt this myself, that we hold a lot of sexual trauma in that clitoral body of ours. Right. You know, we think about the clitoris as that little tip, but that's just the tip of the iceberg, that that tip is the glands of our clitoris. And then we have our shaft, and we have the arms and we have the legs, and we have the body, but then we also have the g spot, which is not a spot. It's a sponge along spongy tissue that looks kind of like a pool noodle. We have the perineal sponge, and then we have the womb, if you will, the cervix, the uterus, and the vaginal tissue. And all of that tissue really holds a lot of that trauma for many, many people. And I think in the male body, a lot of it is held in the prostate as well.
Susan [00:43:53]:
The prostate. And the urethral sponge, or g area, or g spot, is homologous. And that means that when we were gestating, we started out with all the same parts, and then they kind of morphed into an innie or an outie. So I really have a lot of men also do a lot of prostate massage and pleasuring, both for helping them release trauma. Just like G spot touching releases trauma. I have a program that I did with tallulah Sulis. She'd be great on your show. It's called female liquid orgasm, and it really teaches you how to find, locate, soften, and release the whole.
Susan [00:44:40]:
That whole g area in there. And that allows you to let go of a lot of buried and stored trauma that kind of got stuck in the body and wants to be released. When you do that, it's kind of the on ramp to female ejaculation for many women, where they're able to then soften that area such that it becomes more malleable, that it allows the feminine waters to run, to release. And just as our male partners urinate and ejaculate out of the end of their penis, ours is just. The tube doesn't go out. It just ends in the vestibule in the opening between our inner labia. That's where we ejaculate and urinate out of the same tube. It just ends there.
Susan [00:45:32]:
And so there's just a little sphincter muscle that kind of closes off the bladder so you don't urinate. And once we're able to access that sensation, when you first touch g spots, often they're very hard and ridgy. It's called a ruge. And as you stimulate them and you pleasure them and you bring blood flow to them. Blood flow is everything in sex. My God, is it important. And it softens and it plumps up, and it puffs up, and it begins to feel really nicely. And sometimes stimulating that area will allow a woman to open and push out her pleasure and her amrita, or amrita.
Susan [00:46:17]:
And the amrita, that's just a sanskrit word for her. Her divine waters, her feminine waters, her divine nectar. And this is just the prostatic fluid that comes down through the blood plasma into the skene's glands and into the urethra. So that when you have a contraction, it's expelled, very much like the male ejaculate. You have the contraction, and it's expelled, and it expels the ejaculate that comes from the prostate gland and from the sperm that are made by the testicles. So we're very, very similar, and we all have armoring. And so the touching and the softening and the loving is what really allows us to release that and move through it and get into more pleasure.
Deborah [00:47:03]:
Beautiful. Thank you. And it sounds like, you know, for there's. There's de armoring that happens for both the masculine body as well as the feminine body. And it's funny. As you were talking about, you know, mental getting to know their prostate and the pleasure that's available there, I had the thought that you're talking about owning your own pleasure as a sovereign woman. And for men, it seems like being able to own that prostate pleasure, being able to own the things that are considered to be taboo, because if you enjoy state pleasure, you might be gay. And actually owning that part and, you know, is stepping out of the very tight box that we have around masculine sexuality, just as owning our own pleasure, owning and being able to choose our partner or partners or, you know, based on our own pleasure and our own desire.
Deborah [00:48:13]:
One of the most radical things that we can do for ourselves. I wanted to just mention. So you've mentioned Doctor Patty a couple of times. And one of the things, one of my most memorable encounters and one of the most freeing things I've ever experienced was I had gone. So this was me in my early twenties. I was very much about, like, I knew I wanted something different. And honestly, I was really afraid of men in the masculine. And, you know, so I was showing up in these courses and, you know, all the men around me were creeps and blah, blah, blah, you know, in my head, you know, because they wanted to.
Deborah [00:48:58]:
All they wanted was, you know, to get their hands on pussy, you know. And so this is how I was showing up in courses. And of course, you know, that wasn't this. Yes, there's truth and no, that wasn't true at the same time. And so I remember I had called Doctor Patti after one of the courses, and I'm like, how could you leave these? How could you let these people in? They're not safe. Blah, blah, blah, blah. And she literally stopped me. And she was like, you are never going to find safety until you find your own safety.
Deborah [00:49:33]:
You are going to learn how. You're going to need to learn how to hold yourself, your sexual energy, and your own boundaries. And I did not want to hear that. You know, that was just not what I was wanting to hear. I wanted to make everybody else wrong and everybody else responsible for, you know, for my safety and more importantly, for my pleasure. Like that. That story was just so tight and so ingrained there. And I just.
Deborah [00:50:06]:
I have such appreciation for her loving, firm directness and being like, hey, this is the deal, you know, I can create this space, but, you know, there is a space that you need to step into. And, you know, as I was hearing you talk about being a sovereign woman, I'm like, oh, I'm still on the path. And really, actually owning that, I mean, owning my own desire was a huge step. And I'm kind of curious, like, what have been some of the things for you that have been tricky along the way of becoming a more embodied, sovereign, sexual being?
Susan [00:50:56]:
I want to say two things before I answer that question. The first is that I really like how, how careful you are with the words that you use. You are an excellent communicator, a very kind communicator, and obviously very well educated in the school of sexual, you know, emancipation, I guess, is what we do. And then the second thing is that. But that's how I always felt about Doctor Patti, too, is that I have been so lucky that she has been one of my. She's my biggest mentor of all of the people who have mentored me. She's taught me more incredibly powerful things, and I've published both expand her orgasm tonight, as well as the seduction trilogy that is her work. And they are, they, they stand the test of time, and they are the most incredible programs.
Susan [00:52:02]:
I think I set you up with Maurice to get. Make sure you get those. She's really, I think, one of the most important thinkers about sexual navigation.
Deborah [00:52:22]:
Oh, that's such a good word.
Susan [00:52:24]:
Yeah. And the kindness of all for all. So, man, did I get lucky when I met her and said, boy, I want to spend time with you, and I want to publish your work, and I want you to write this for me and that for me and this for me and that for me. Really, really lucky. And then what have been the difficulties for me and my sexual sovereignty? I'd say they've been just these kind of stages. And one of them I hit really recently. I am so still. I'm still having massive breakthroughs in my sex life.
Susan [00:52:56]:
I talk about sex 24/7 I'm writing about it, I'm doing videos, I'm speaking from the stage. I'm on podcasts. I mean, it is just crazy how much sex is a part of my life. It just permeates everything I do because I just find it so fascinating. One of the things that I recently realized was, number one, that I have some non negotiables that are very, very important to me. One is that I like to be the one who penetrates me. Like, I don't want a male bodied partner putting their penis in me. I need to be in control of it.
Susan [00:53:36]:
Which is one of the reasons why I think cowgirl is a way. I like to start intercourse sessions because I'm in control of the speed at which I'm penetrated. Because I have felt in my life that I have just been penetrated too soon and too fast. Pretty much every time.
Deborah [00:53:54]:
Didn't feel.
Susan [00:53:55]:
I feel out of control when someone's penetrating me. So that's been a big thing that I just realized is why I wanted the reasons I love cowgirl. So much. The second is that I don't know my partner an ejaculation. If I'm done, I'm done. He can masturbate, or we can have sex in the next day or so, and he's going to live. And when I used to feel like it was my duty to give him an ejaculation, sex felt like work instead of like joy. The other one is, I can stop anytime that I want.
Susan [00:54:29]:
There's nobody watching me or keeping time. Sometimes it can be very long, and sometimes it can be very short. I've also learned that I need to take breaks and rest, and then I build up more desire again, and then I can come back to it. But I like long, leisurely lovemaking with a lot of breaks that it doesn't have. I find a lot of people think that it's just like you start and then you're, like, barreling through until you both come, and then you're done. And they're very, very short because it takes, you know, physical energy to have sex. So that's another one that I think is really, really important and another one that I think I've learned a lot over the last maybe decade or so has been what you were talking about with regard to. I know what I'm in the mood for.
Susan [00:55:20]:
I can hear what my body is wanting. My body gives me the ideas for what might be fun for this particular date and this particular moment with this particular person. And I usually come up with a ton of great ideas. And whoever it is that's playing with me is like, yeah, that sounds good, let's do that. You know, like, I'm really good at coming up with super fun shit to do and that I like lots of options. And that sometimes I'll think I'm going to do one thing and then I completely change and pivot on a dime and want something totally different. And what I found is that my mail bodied partners, they actually respond really well to that. Like they're not.
Susan [00:56:04]:
They don't have any set course of what's going to happen. One of the things they enjoy about having sex with me, beyond how well I come, which they find very satisfying, is that they know that if I'm not, if I'm. If I'm doing it, I'm happy. And if I'm not happy, I will say so. And I think that's a big one, too. So, you know, I learned more techniques over time. I learned to listen to my body. I learned to honor it.
Susan [00:56:37]:
I learned not to do anything. I didn't want to. And it just seems like that all just works so much better for everybody because I think when, when I have sex with a partner, they just feel very at ease. Like, at first it's disrupting for them to have so much feedback, or they might think, oh, she's demanding, or. But then after they kind of experience it, they're like, man, fucking her is fun. Like, I always have. It is never the same. And I always know she's okay, because if she ain't crying, she ain't dying.
Susan [00:57:14]:
She's gonna tell me if she doesn't like something, like she's never going to do anything and then be later, like, well, you. I never have. I never, like, hold the grudge because I did that for too many years where I felt like I had a duty to my husband and I had to do it even if it wasn't that great for me. And I just got out of that whole paradigm. And when you're in the what does pussy want today? Paradigm and you just give it to her because, you know, if you don't give it to her, she gonna be bitchy, and you do not want that. And so when everybody just gives pussy what she wants, and it's my job to use the lips on my face to speak for the lips in my pussy. Right? So that's the. I love that.
Deborah [00:57:57]:
That is so.
Susan [00:57:59]:
That was something Deborah Kagan taught me. She said, have you ever noticed how the larynx and the vagina look exactly the same, but one of them's lips can talk and one can't? I'm like, oh, my girl, that's a good one. Debra's really great. You should have her on your show sometime. Anybody I've mentioned that you want introductions to just let me know. But, yeah. So I think those are some things that were, like, stages and learnings and new non negotiables and just like, how I'm. How I'm moving through my sexuality.
Susan [00:58:30]:
And I'll tell you, I still want to do new things. Like last night, one of the things I wanted to do. Oh, well, it was two nights ago, so I happen to be polyamorous. I'm not condoning that for anyone else. It's just right for my husband and I. And we're in relationship with another man. They're both straight, but they don't mind touching each other. And I have a lot of sex with the two of them.
Susan [00:58:57]:
I like to be with two men. It's one of my favorite things. I like all that pleasure and because I like to push how much pleasure I can experience. And so when you're listening to me tell you about this, I don't want you to think that I recommend it for you. I don't recommend it for people. It is a very big game, very high level game. You must play with a lot of knowledge about yourself, a lot of vulnerability, a lot of truth telling, a lot of excellent scheduling. You know, there's a lot to it, but it's right for me.
Susan [00:59:36]:
And I wanted to have a date with my husband and my boyfriend. That started off I was wearing a really cute outfit for them. We were at my boyfriend's house, and I wanted to stand up in front of them in the living room. And I wanted them to just adore me. I wanted them to tell me how, what they thought was pretty about me, what they thought was smart about me, things they love about me, things they're noticing I'm doing that they think are amazing, anything, like objectify my boobs, anything. And then two nights after that, I wanted to worship their cocks. And they both sat up in the bed, and I sat between them and I stroked them both with my phoria sex oil. Did you get yours yet?
Deborah [01:00:21]:
I did.
Susan [01:00:23]:
Oh, good.
Deborah [01:00:24]:
We have to come back to that.
Susan [01:00:25]:
Yeah, let's. Parking lots for you. And I stroked their cocks, and I just told them what I loved about their cocks and what I loved about them and how good they were in bed. And then I took turns making love to them, riding them both. My husband, I faced. My boyfriend loves reverse cowgirl because it bends his cock this certain way that he feels is really good. And we looked in the mirror and it was super fun and super sexy. And then we went on to do other things, but that adoration and appreciation.
Susan [01:00:56]:
I heard somebody recently say, oh, you have an adoration kink. And I'm like, no, I don't. Everybody likes adoration. It's like touch. If you don't like touch, it's not a big bell curve. It's trauma. We are made to be held. We're born to be held and touched.
Susan [01:01:18]:
And so if you don't like it, it is likely that, I mean, there might be a few people that have, you know, some odd nervous system thing or what have you. But generally, I think that it's like, you know, if you're training a puppy and the puppy doesn't want to get you touch, doesn't want to be touched, and then you give them a little treat and you just pet their head a little bit and every time they come over for a treat, you just give them a little other pat a little bit. Pretty soon they're sitting on your lap wanting you to pet them. It's just getting used to being touched in a safe way. Yeah. And I, so I don't think that adoration, being, wanting to be adored or told how great you are, it's not a kink, it's a human desire. We all need it. But we were taught, oh, don't be stuck up.
Susan [01:02:08]:
Don't. That'll give you a big head. You should, you know, you don't need to hear that. You already know we're love you. Like all this puritanical, religiously repressed bullshit that holds us back from the adoration we all deserve. And so I literally stood up there the entire time while they were adoring me. And I had him tape it. I had him put it on video because I wanted to be able to use it and show people what they're saying and how to do it and to see how much I loved it and I could take it in.
Susan [01:02:43]:
I didn't deflect. I didn't know I shouldn't do that. I was like, what else? Tell me more. And someone could look at that and go, God, she's got a giant ego. I do not have a giant ego. I have a right sized ego. I'm incredible, and I know it.
Deborah [01:03:01]:
That's so good. I have to tell you, when you were talking about, you know, when you started talking about standing up and being adored, I had that moment of like, oh, that would be such an edge for me, you know?
Susan [01:03:16]:
And now you must.
Deborah [01:03:19]:
That's exactly what I was thinking. And now I've got to figure, now I'm going to have to invite my partner to play with this adoration.
Susan [01:03:28]:
I'll send you the video. I'm going to publish it somewhere. I don't know if I'm going to put on my onlyfans or my better love website, but I'm going to publish it so people can see it. It's a little dirty because I show them my pussy and things like that. So I can't really put it. I can't put it on YouTube or anything, but I can put it on better lover and I can put it on onlyfans.
Deborah [01:03:45]:
Yeah. And I just, I mean, that, that being able to take that in, being able to receive without deflecting, is such a thing. Like, it's so fascinating. I watch people. I watch particularly, you know, women will say to each other something like, oh, I love your hat or your dress. And it's like, oh, this old thing, I got it.
Susan [01:04:08]:
Blah, blah, blah.
Deborah [01:04:09]:
You know, I, you know, one of the many communities I'm a part of, you know, the encouragement is to, you know, when, when somebody compliments you is to say thank you for noticing and being able to actually let that land so that it actually becomes, yeah, just thank you for noticing versus the thing you say when somebody gives you a compliment. Anyway, perfect. Yes.
Susan [01:04:38]:
This is what I'm talking about with your clean communication. You're really good at clean communication.
Deborah [01:04:44]:
Thank you.
Susan [01:04:45]:
You are. I do a lot of podcasts. I talk to a lot of experts. You are very good at it. You're very well trained. Yeah. Thank you for noticing.
Deborah [01:04:54]:
Thank you for noticing. Oh, my goodness. I could, I would. So I'm hoping that you'll come back and join me again.
Susan [01:05:06]:
Of course.
Deborah [01:05:07]:
And please, like, you know, I'd love it if you could tell us all where we can find you. Of course, we will put everything in the show notes, but where's the best place to get a hold of you? And before you say that, I'm just going to say, well, I should probably invite you to tell us where your newsletter is because your newsletter is great.
Susan [01:05:30]:
You like it?
Deborah [01:05:32]:
I do. I was like three. In fact, I meant to ask you about this earlier because you had three pleasure principles in the last newsletter, which I'm just going to tease people and say you're going to want to check out the newsletter so that, that you can get the pleasure principles because they're really good.
Susan [01:05:54]:
I'm so glad I write so much. I don't even remember what that was at this point. It's funny because I was just writing about male multiple orgasm before I called you and how using a prostate tool helps you become a multi orgasmic man. If guys want to have unlimited stamina and they want to be able to last as long as they want, they want to be able to run that energy in their body instead of out their dick. They really, really need to be able to feel up inside their body the pleasure and the prostate, as a matter of fact, the tool that I like, I just got another one from. I don't know if you can see it. It's called the molto Molto. It's going to be at orgasmic crosstraining.com if you want to see all the three prostate tools.
Susan [01:06:37]:
Since we talked about that so much, this little molto, it's real bendable and it's very slim and it has a really good motor. And it kind of activates deep into that, you know, that core of the masculine pleasure system and really helps men just kind of get them get the movement of their turn on up into their body instead of just constantly shooting it out the end of their dick. And I think that's just such an interesting, you know, a lot more men now are like, I'm older. Guys are like, I got to work my prostate because I don't want to get, you know, prostate, BPH and urination issues and prostate cancer and things like, so they're starting to get smart. And the younger guys are like, I want to become multi orgasmic, man. I've heard about this. How do I do it? So that's, that's pretty fun. So you can get on my newsletter@personallifemedia.com.
Susan [01:07:28]:
i know that sounds like a lot to remember. I also have another site, better lover, that I have a kind of a short newsletter that comes out two times a week on that it doesn't go into so much depth, but it's good, too. So personallifemedia.com, comma betterlover.com. and then if you go to moresusan.com, it has a lot, pretty much everything is linked off of moresusan.com. so that could be another good place for you. You can follow me on Instagram, Susanbrat and Instagram and threads. That's where I kind of hang out. But it's hard for me to, if you dm me there, it's harder for me to reply because it's on my phone.
Susan [01:08:08]:
Most of the time, I'm on my phone for that. So if you get my newsletter and you have any questions for me at all about anything, you can just reply to my newsletter and I'll reply back to you. And that's what I've been doing for decades for people. And it really, it's good because most of the time people ask me things that I'm like, oh, I've got a video that answers that, or I've got an article about that, or I've got an ebook about that. Here you go. Here you go. So like I said, when you're talking about people's sexuality, they come in from all different locations and places. But the answers are pretty organized now for me.
Susan [01:08:47]:
I've got 5000 articles, 300 videos, you know, so I can send you to the thing you're asking about. I can, and I can almost sometimes help people. Like, they're not quite sure what it is they're trying to ask me. And I can be like, are you asking about this or this? I'll be like that. That's what I want to know. That's one of my problems or what I want or my desire. So I love helping people with that stuff. So it just makes me better at what I do.
Susan [01:09:14]:
Just like every client you have makes you better for all your other clients. It's just the same thing.
Deborah [01:09:20]:
Absolutely.
Susan [01:09:20]:
So thank you for having me.
Deborah [01:09:22]:
Oh, my gosh. Thank you for joining me here today. Thank you for the work that you do in the world and your incredible generosity. You've got incredible information out there for free, and you've done a lot of your own research. You've worked with so many really smart people bringing their products out into the world. And I didn't realize that you were the publisher of, of Patty's book, Doctor Patti's book. And so, yeah. So check it out.
Deborah [01:09:58]:
And again, thank you so very much. For those who are listening, I'm sure you know somebody who this conversation can support and to help. So please help get the word out by sharing this episode. Please, like, subscribe, make a comment wherever you get your podcasts, episodes. And again, thank you so much, Susan. Please follow her on Instagram and all the good stuff. Thank you so much.