Mastering the Art of BDSM ~ Ken Zane
I often talk about my Leather Daddy or my BDSM mentor I am beyond thrilled to have Ken as my guest.
Though he’s always had a love for tying people up, Ken Zane didn’t connect with the BDSM aspect of this affinity until he was stationed in Germany. There, he found an amazing community that introduced him to BDSM play - and unlocked his passion for being Dominant.
But the more BSDM communities Ken explored, the more he found a lot of other Doms played in very unsafe, inattentive ways. So, Ken did what any good soldier would do - he formed a lesson plan.
Ken traveled around the country teaching Doms everything from how to build trust, use tools, and become a better communicator during play. In this episode, he takes us through some of his most essential teachings and gives us an insider look at what makes up a REALLY good BDSM dynamic.
Join Ken and me as we discuss:
playing dominant and submissive at parties on Capitol Hill
why surrendering yourself to power and submission can feel so freeing
the sexiness of solid boundaries
how BDSM & sex relate to each other
what needs to happen to ensure a positive and safe BDSM experience
the importance of trust and communication in BDSM
how to check in with each other - without ruining the moment
what most Doms get wrong about being dominant
How Ken’s experience in the military affects his Dominance style
Connect with Ken
DCBlade@aol.com
Connect with Deborah
Send your sex and relationship questions to DeborahTantraKat@Gmail.com
For a free Truth and Clarity Session https://www.deborahkat.com/appointments-3
Website: https://www.deborahkat.com/
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In our commitment accessibility, help make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who like to read rather than listen to podcasts. The transcription is far from perfect, and in some cases quite amusing. As we grow edited transcripts are on the list in the meantime please enjoy. Otter.Ai
Unknown Speaker
to an audio Wonderful. Well welcome everybody to another episode of the better sex podcast. I am your host Deborah Kat. And I am ridiculously excited about this episode. So I am talking to my dear friend, cat, Ken, who, if you have heard my story at all, when I talk about going to DC and meeting a DOM who was a mentor, that's Ken, and we have had an a friendship relationship for over 20 years. So without any further ado, I'm going to read the official bio, which is that Ken is a dominant male, retired military, and he started he started exploring the BDSM world in Germany in 1989. Upon being upon being assigned in Atlanta, Georgia in 1992, he found a community of caring people who are willing to pass along the skills necessary to practice BDSM safely. In 1995, in Washington, DC, he joined a group called Black Rose and watch the community grow in leaps and bounds. He served on the board of Black Rose and is the count the co founder of the resource pool in Maryland, where he taught classes in Washington, DC, Ohio, Michigan, Florida, North Carolina, West Virginia, Texas, and several other states are multiple BDSM topics. He currently lives in North East, Ohio. Please welcome, Ken. Hello, Ken.
Unknown Speaker
Hello, Deborah, how are you?
Unknown Speaker
Oh, my God, I'm so excited to have you here.
Unknown Speaker
I think I'm excited as you are.
Unknown Speaker
I'm so great. Well, thank you again for saying yes. And, you know, I told a little bit of the story from my perspective. And of course, I've read your official bio, but I'm really curious. I'd love to hear your story in your words. Okay.
Unknown Speaker
Well, welcome. I'm kind of snowed in today. And so I had nothing better to do except talk to you because that's what I wanted to do so, but my story goes back to actually my childhood. And I didn't realize this till I started talking with some of my childhood friends. And they were the ones always telling me whenever we played any type of game, whether it was like cowboys and Indians or army, I always had rope. When I'd catch your my tie him up, you know, that was a standard operating procedure. So I would go ahead and tie up all my friends. And, of course, sometimes they got out of it because I wasn't that good at it as child. But over the years, I got quite a bit better, but that's where I think it started. I also remember watching cartoons and one of them that comes to mind. And I know I'm dating myself now but was, let's see, I think it was called Dudley do right. He was a Mountie, and he had a Evil Nemesis called Snidely Whiplash. And Snidely Whiplash would always steal his girlfriend now, and tire to the railroad tracks or tire on a bomb or something. And he and Dudley do, right would ride to the rescue. And that was one of my favorite cartoons. So I always, I guess, was into taking people and tying them up. And, but not in the bad way, tying them up in a way that is kind of sensual, and fun. And so that's, I think that's where it goes back to, I think my childhood actually. But like you said earlier, I didn't really get into the BDSM aspect of it until I was in Germany. And I ran into some people there. And then when I really felt confident that that's something I wanted to go into when I got to Atlanta, Georgia. I met a bunch of bunch of lovely people down in Georgia, who were into it. And so over the years as I traveled to different got stationed at different locations, I finally ended up in Washington, DC, and that's where I really really got into all the aspects of it, including teaching because what I found was many of the dominants that were there weren't doing things exactly how should I say in a sanitary way in a, in a way that would bring joy to their their submissive or the people that were bottoming to them. And so what I did, I formed a lesson plan, because that's what we do in the military, we always make up. You know, and I, and like I told people, if I can teach you how to throw a hand grenade, I can teach you how to throw whip. So you know, either way, it's gonna work out so. But then when I said, and then now, kind of teaching all over the country, I've met so many people. In fact, a lot of the people that I've met, I'm still friends with just like you, you and I remained friends for, like I said, 20 years plus, now, I have other friends that I go down to Texas, or I go down to Florida. And it's just like, we pick up right where we left off, it's just really lovely to have old friends that enjoy the same things in life. So that's what that's, that's where I'm at now, I basically, am in Ohio. And I have friends around here also, who are interested in like to do a little BDSM play. But yeah, it's really great. I've had a lovely time traveling and sharing all my lesson plans with people all over the country. And a lot of them are just passing it on to other people. And it's just a continuous growing of the communities and all the different areas of the country now.
Unknown Speaker
Right? Well, I just want to give people a little bit of a snapshot of what my experience was. Back in Washington, DC, and so basically, I was an intern, and I would go do my official intern things on at the hill. And then we would, at night, you know, I would often be at your house. And on the weekends, we would have parties, and there was always a teaching aspect to it. And then there was sort of a freestyle party piece to it. And your household, as I remember it, you had a somebody who you had a boy, who was your, you know, he had certain basically, he took care of the house, and he took care of your boots, and he took really good care of you. And so he he was your boy. And then you had somebody who was your college sub. And then you had me who was sort of like the house cat?
Unknown Speaker
Yes, I laughed about
Unknown Speaker
what I loved about that was it's like you had you know, you, you had this very particular way in which you interacted with all of us, and in the way that we interacted with you. And it was really about power and submission. Would you say that's accurate?
Unknown Speaker
I think that's what that's exactly you, you'd kind of nailed it there. And the cool thing about this is, I'm still in contact with every one of you. And we've remained friends over the over the years, which is the way it should be, you know, this is also good, there's no reason why the friendship should ever end. Nobody stepped over anybody's boundaries, which is very important, because we all have boundaries, even even as the dominant I had boundaries.
Unknown Speaker
And lately, and I think that's part of what made makes you such a great meet makes or makes you such a great dominant is that you really have solid boundaries. And one of the ones that, you know, we wanted to talk were to talk about, was that there that for you, BDSM and sex. There is
Unknown Speaker
a separation. Of course. Yes. Go ahead.
Unknown Speaker
You. I was just gonna say I think, you know, the way that BDSM and sex are portrayed out there right now is they're very much intertwined, which is a beautiful thing, if that's part of the conversation and part of the agreements. But what was fascinating to me, because, you know, I came from the west coast and in the West Coast, there wasn't so much of a separation, but getting coming to the East Coast. There really was and I'm wondering if you could talk about that a little bit.
Unknown Speaker
Well, I don't know how it is currently, because I don't go to very many public events, but I know in the way it was back, back around the early what's what was that? What year was that about the
Unknown Speaker
late 90s died early 2000s.
Unknown Speaker
Back at the back at the turn of the century. Today, beam so long now, but anyway. Yeah, so my object with BDSM was not to have sex with everybody. In fact, I, I had a pretty good reputation. And that you you weren't gonna necessarily have sex with me if we played. So that's that's one thing that I could say that I had a lot of people didn't a lot of people use BDSM in the scene, by the way, BDSM so, so stands for bondage and submission, and sadomasochism, B, and D, and SNL. So just wanted to say that for people who maybe weren't sure what we were talking about,
Unknown Speaker
and I'd also like to add in the DS, which is dominance and submission.
Unknown Speaker
Exactly, yes, they're all there. They're different. And so, back to the story about, you know, sex and BDSM, when you can make that work together. It is marvelous, it is magnificent. Some of the best sex I ever had was after playing with someone, and then just falling into bed with them. It was absolutely magnificent. And because it's like foreplay, you know, both of you, the dominant and the submissive, both are doing things to each other. Well, I'm mostly doing but doing things that is actually arousing my partner. And so that's kind of a cool thing. Because now so we've been playing for an hour, maybe an hour and a half, we're doing all sorts of things. And it's all involves touching and holding the person close, so that you can do the terrible things you have to do to them because they want it. And, and so, so you turn someone on for an hour and a half, the sex is going to be really great when you get to it.
Unknown Speaker
Mm hmm. So that,
Unknown Speaker
that makes me wonder. So are you saying that, like you would say that this that once you got through the sex, you stepped out of your dominant submissive roles?
Unknown Speaker
Oh, no, not necessarily. You can. That could be something that you want to do if because sometimes some people, you know, after a scene, there's something called aftercare as a scene is when you perform some type of BD, or SM, or any type of a scene on the person, you know, something that they want to have happen to them. Because all consensual and that's the key point here, this is got to be consensual, you can't just walk up and hit somebody, or you know, it's not going to get a good response. But you talk about what you want to do and what they want you to do to them prior and then develop that relationship. It's just like a dating relationship with to plan a scene for a person, you want to find out what they want, you want to find out what's there. If they have any medical issues, you know, you got to know all these things, you just can't walk up and start playing with someone you need to do some talking and coordinate with them because they may have asthma. And if they don't have their inhaler, I'm certainly not going to play with them.
Unknown Speaker
Right? Well, just since we're talking about it, um, I'd love to just, you know, go through quickly setting up, you know, the container for what a scene looks like. And so for, you know, for, for the, for the absolute basics of, you know, the first thing that you need to come up with is who's going to play which role?
Unknown Speaker
Correct? Yeah, that's very important.
Unknown Speaker
And then, and then there's sort of the like, so you've got the idea, like, who's gonna play what role? And then there's, there's the question of What game are you playing? Right? And so when I talk about role I'm talking about you can either be a dominant, a submissive, a top or a bottom. Right. And, and I'm wondering if you can talk a little bit about like, what the difference between those different roles are,
Unknown Speaker
okay. Well, a dominant, if you're someone's dominant, it's a I think it's a closer relationship than just the top being a top. I like to look at being someone's dominant is something that you just don't do willy nilly. You don't just run out there and say, Oh, here's a collar. I'm going to be your dominant now. That's something that you earn as a dominant because that's submissive has to have the trust and confidence in you, so that they feel safe while they're with you. Hmm, yeah. So that's the way I looked at that. Now as the top
Unknown Speaker
I'm sorry, what what makes a good dominant?
Unknown Speaker
Well, Good dominant, I'd say the first thing that makes a good dominant is is trust. If they don't have trust in the person that they know what they're going to be doing with them is safe, it's going to be hard to move forward. But let me elaborate a little bit. Communication is the very important to earn that trust. And like I said, you have to earn that trust, if you're saying one thing and doing something else, or say you're going to, you're doing something and you screw it up, because maybe you're just weren't practiced enough save with, say, with a single tail, say I throw my single tail, and I actually hit him in the head. You know, because I, I don't know what I'm doing. That is a, that doesn't develop confidence in a person, and therefore the trust is never going to come. So you gotta communicate, I
Unknown Speaker
just want to pause for a moment, for anybody who's not aware, a single tail is a style of wick. Correct. And it's, they tend to be shorter, if I'm not, yeah, through
Unknown Speaker
usually three to five feet. It's a small like little tiny whip that cracks, it could actually break the sound barrier. And, and you can actually cut someone with it, if you if that's what they like. And that's what you would like to do to them. But I use it more in a central way.
Unknown Speaker
Yes, you do. Okay, back to what makes a good dog with it.
Unknown Speaker
Okay. So being a good dominant, basically, you have to, like you said, earn that trust, and keep that communication flowing. And even while you're, you're playing with someone, you check in with them. And you did give them I have a, I have a saying that you, you basically want to leave them wanting more than that way, they'll come back and play with you again. So that's the whole thing about that. So you leave that you don't give them everything that they asked for you give them enough so that they you know, because you don't want to wear out your welcome or burn, you know, go to do too much. And then maybe it turns out so you what you have to be doing, the whole time you're playing with someone is to check in with them, and look at their body language. Look at their facial expressions. When I play with someone, I say I put them into a frame, you know, which is basically two wooden posts with a beam overhead. And you can, you know, put their arms into there and tie their hands. I try, I usually put a mirror in front of them. And the reason is one to show them how beautiful they look. And to to be able to keep an eye on their facial expressions. So if I strike a blow, say I take my flogger, and I give them a good whack. I want to see how they're responding to that. And if I'm behind them, where I usually would be, I can't see their facial expression. So what I do, I cheat, I put a mirror in front of them for both of those reasons that I make them look really beautiful. I will take a piece of material and wrap it around them. I will do things to make them look really good because everybody wants to look good. And that's even in my own home when I'm playing when I used to play in public years ago. Yeah, I wanted them to look great. I wanted people to come up after we were done and say wow, that was the best scene I ever watched. So you know, you want it to look beautiful. So that means I have to care how they look, I have to care how I look. I don't want to go in there with a torn t shirt and a pair of blue jeans. So I'm going to put on some leather chaps I'm going to put on a white shirt, a leather vest, and I'm going to look good, they're going to look good. And that's the purpose of my my play when I'm in public is to make us look good and give her or give give the person that I'm playing with my full undivided attention. I've seen dominance that would go out and they'd be flogging someone and looking around the room to see who's watching them trying to pick out their next victim into that's that's not cool. That's not good. You should be paying attention to the person who has entrusted you with their body.
Unknown Speaker
So so far, we've got trust communication, and I'm going to jump in and say attention. And I didn't realize this but I think this is something that I really picked up in our time together was how to how to create exquisite attention and how to Make it feel for the person who is receiving that attention that they're, you know, as you said, beautiful, and you know, the only person in the room. And I love what you're saying about using a mirror to reflect back. And also to, to, to be able to see what you're doing. And just, you know, one of the things, something that sticks with me that you, you know, that was part of my experience with you is you told me that I didn't, that I didn't have a right to shame. And I don't I don't know if that's even something you remember saying or even part of you do. But for me that was like it. It allowed me to do things or to be out in public and playing in a way that I, I wouldn't have done otherwise. Because it was like it would have been too shameful. But because I wasn't allowed shame that I was like, Okay, I'll do this thing. Um, and I remember I didn't we were we, you were teaching wax play somewhere. And I was your model for that. And it was the first time that I was ever naked in, you know, in that way, and you're like, Well, you don't have to shave. I was like, Okay, I'll jump in. But what and that's, that's such a testament to how much I trusted you, and how much I was willing to just, you know, follow your lead, because it was such a solid lead. And,
Unknown Speaker
yeah, you shouldn't be embarrassed to be having fun in public. If it's a public space for that to happen. You know, you shouldn't be ashamed to let yourself get what you're, you want to get to try the things that you you want or think you want. And then you'll know whether you want more of that or not. So he is to not be embarrassed, don't be ashamed. And my job is to make you not be embarrassed and not be ashamed and make you look beautiful, why we have a blast.
Unknown Speaker
I love that. And yeah, just really creating that container of, you know, there's the container of the scene, you know, the play between you and I and then the container that like the parties or the, you know, the situation used to create. So, you know, for those who aren't aware, we, you know, Black Rose and several other organizations around the country generally have parties or conventions where there are where you can see people play where you can go out and play in public. And
Unknown Speaker
Mike Rose had 100 Playstations at the last one that I went to. Wow. Yeah, it was amazing. They had like 500 people and there were 100 PlayStations,
Unknown Speaker
huh. Yeah. So um, I mean, we've we've talked about it a little bit, but I'm curious, like, if you were to say what your flavor of DOM
Unknown Speaker
is, okay. I'm kind of a sensual type of dominant. I like to, and I think that's an essential slash sexual. When you're playing with someone's body, it is sexual. Whether you're playing with a leather flogger, or you're playing with clothespins or you're playing with you know, your hands either, you know, so my favorite toy is my hands. Mm hmm all these bloggers I have all these whips. I have wooden paddles I have all this stuff with my hands and are my best toy I think because I get instant feedback. It's not another another medium you know it's not traveling through leather wood or plastic or you know, whatever. It's traveling is right from you to me. And so my hands I think are I get the most feedback and it's an you always have them with you. So you never in search of a toy bag you can never seen anywhere.
Unknown Speaker
Right? Right? No and I so appreciate that. Like I so appreciate one of the things that that I feel like you really do well is listen and listen not just with your your ears, but with your whole body. And this is what you know what you're saying around like, when you put your hands on someone there's instant feedback, you know what the impact is? And You know, as as a DOM, part of impact is being impacted, right is knowing that is feeling that what your your sub is feeling or getting a sense of it through, you know, through listening with your body.
Unknown Speaker
Exactly, you're exactly right, it's important that you pay attention to what's going on, you just can't go out there and just hit someone with a flogger, or paddle or your hand, you have to feel what's happening. In fact, I had a doctor talk to me one time and he was explaining how the layers of skin you have the outer layer and then facia, and as you press down through the skin, you feel other layers of your body. And he really opened my eyes to feeling into people with my hands. So you know, that was one great thing that I learned from this doctor about the layers of the skin and how, and you know how deep you're going into the person because, you know, some people want bruises when I play with them. And so I can give them bruises. But I don't want to give them bruises. Because you know, that's probably not healthy to do over and over again, for anybody. But, you know, the key is, be aware where you're the person is at, sometimes the person will zone out completely, and they don't really feel anything you're doing to them at that point. So I want them to experience that. But I don't want them to stay zoned out because I want to bring them back and get our connection back. zoned out. That's good. They might like being there. But I don't like when they're there because I want them to feel me and have them. I want to keep the connection between us going.
Unknown Speaker
Mm hmm. Yeah. And, and I, I love that you're talking about, you know, BDSM as, as a framework for connection as a way of connecting. Because, you know, one of the things I really value about, about the alternative world in general and kink specifically is how much you need to communicate about how much you need to, to allow for that connection to happen. And both through through your words, and also through the the things that you're doing. One of the things I absolutely remember about playing with you is that you are a master spanker
Unknown Speaker
Well, thank you very much.
Unknown Speaker
You. Like you. You just really and I think it's because you you, you know the things that we've been talking about so far as you love the sensual and that feedback that you that you received from from using a hand, which is what you do when you spank. But I'm curious like this seems like an odd question. But I'm, I'm curious, like how your experience in the military affected your your play and your your dominance?
Unknown Speaker
Oh, that's a really good question. Yeah, it did affect it. I'll tell you. In fact, during the end of my career, when I was stationed in Washington, DC, you know, I had to be very careful that I was not going to, you know, do anything that is going to bring discredit upon the military, which this probably would have. I even though I'm safe, and I'm sensuous. And I, you know, I asked permission to do these things. I don't think they look at it in a positive way. So I used to have to keep a very low profile. So I changed my last name. So I would be known as Ken Zane. And that way there was no tracing it back to me. However, at a party one time, I ran into a fellow military person who I used to sit in meetings with once a week, and he looked at me, I looked at him, and we just both walked off in different ways. And we both knew neither of us wanted to, you know, we didn't want even go there. So but when we got to our meetings that next Monday morning, it was interesting because we kind of looked at each other and smiled and we had an inside thing about we were both kinky and and we loved it. So
Unknown Speaker
love that. So I'm curious, you know, we've been talking a little bit about asking permission. And what would you like if you're having a conversation with someone, how do you bring in? How do you bring in consent?
Unknown Speaker
Okay, consent is? Well, the communication portion. And I start out I'm very upfront with someone if someone wants to play with me, usually that's, they were referred to by someone that I knew or, or I, they saw me play, which is very important to see the person play before you play with them. Because if you if you're lucky enough to have that opportunity, because then you know, you see how they play, you got a general idea? Does it look like he knows what what they're doing? Or does she look like she knows what she's doing? And so, but the getting the consent and doing the you have to be upfront. You I have a list that I go down. And it's usually I start out asking them, What do you like to do? What do you think you'd like to do, some of them have never played before, I had a woman tell me, she used to get spanked as a child, and she didn't want to be spanked. However, about six months later, I did spank her and she loved it. So because I built up that trust, but I wasn't going to go out there and start spanking or you have to find out what people's hot buttons are. Right? Everybody has landmines, that's the way I call it. Everybody has landmines and the things you don't want to do. It may be you know, humiliation, it may be things that make them you know, trigger something, so they have these landmines that we have to stay away from. Now you can approach them slowly. But there's a limit, where she, you're gonna have to read their body language, you're gonna have to, you know, get an idea what's going on. So that's why when you play with someone, you check in with them, you don't leave them out there, and then do things, whatever you want, you know, you stick to the things that you agreed upon when you were negotiating. And you so you find out what they like, what they don't like, you find out if they have any medical issues that you need to know about. Mm hmm. The limit things that you can do, some people have, maybe I don't know, I, I have I sprained my wrist last week, you know, and so I'm obviously not going to hang them up by their wrists or put them up, you know, not that I hang people by their wrists usually,
Unknown Speaker
definitely not as nicely,
Unknown Speaker
that would not be putting their arms up. And while you're playing with them, also, what you'll find is, the body can't be in a constrained situation for a very long, I'm talking, you know, you could put in there for 1015 minutes. But you can't put him in a restrained situation for a long period of time. Because when you pull them down, the pain is going to be really because they they're still get stiffen and your joints, especially as we get older. And, and so I'm always moving them around. So if I put their arms up over their head, I'll have overtime, I'll put one arm down at their side, if they're in my frame, I have different eye hooks that I can hook into on it. So I move their arms around, so they're not just stuck with their arms over their head for an hour and a half. Mm hmm. You know, and then you have to look at endurance, every person has different endurance. And so what you want to do by checking in with them, you're checking out where they're at. Some of them are kind of like hanging, you know, they can hardly their legs are like noodles, they can't hold themselves up, I don't let them get to that point, I will have them down off of the frame and sitting in a chair, and I might tie them to the chair. You know, so that doesn't mean that it has to stop, it just means we have to go to a different different venue I call it well you may go from the frame to a chair, a table, you know, they become a little more weaker. I guess that's the word I could use this become a little more front because this is definitely your heart rate is up, your your blood is flowing. Your muscles are being you know, pulled taut sometimes and so you have to allow them to relax a little bit. So doesn't mean you stop it just means that you have to put them in a different position.
Unknown Speaker
Right, right. So I'm curious when you say you check in with them. Are you like?
Unknown Speaker
I don't say how you doing? Pull up and say hey, how you doing? Is this okay? No, you don't. You don't have to do like that. You get there you make eye contact with them. You give them smile. And if they smile back, they're good to go. They're not smiling. If they're crying, if you have tears, sometimes those are tears of joy, you got to be able to determine what is it? Did I hit one of those landmines I talked about earlier? Or? Or is she just having such a great time? She could the the emotions are coming out.
Unknown Speaker
Right? Well, and I remember one of the things, you know, one of the one of the things he taught me, what are the very things he taught me was the idea of having sort of in the medium word, so there's safe words, which is the we need to stop now. But there was also like, the word, and for me, it's always been Merci,
Unknown Speaker
merci. Okay, where
Unknown Speaker
it's like, I'm getting to that point where I'm liking it, but I'm really, really, really on my edge, or at least I think I'm on my edge. Um, and so so there's that, that, that way in which the sub communicates to the DOM or, you know, as well as the DOM, communicating with the sub to check in.
Unknown Speaker
Yeah, because when it gets to that point where they have to use one of the safe words, that means it's not as much fun as they they're not having a good time. So I want to know is okay, you're not having a good time. So I'll give you, you know, like your yours was mercy. But what I do with people that first time I'm playing with them, perhaps I'll give them something a little easier, like, yellow for caution, hey, I'm starting to get a little this is getting getting to be too much. It's not too much, but it's starting to, and then red. And so you want to get a caught a yellow from them so that they can understand. They can tell you that this is getting to be too much. They don't have to take what I'm doing. They, they're not there to tolerate it. They're there to enjoy it not to tolerate it. So let me know if I'm going a little too much. I usually don't have people safe word. Me I have, I think in my, my long career, I've probably had one person give me a yellow. Because I'm so aware of them where they're at. I don't I've never gotten a read from anyone. And I think I've only gotten like one or two yellows in my whole career. Talking to, you know, playing with people. And I feel that's really a positive because I'm in touch with you. I'm not just here for me. I'm here for both of us.
Unknown Speaker
So what is it that you think that you get out of being a DOM? Like, what is the what is the piece for you? That is all yours? Oh, gosh, what
Unknown Speaker
do I get that? Well, obviously, I get something out of it, or I wouldn't have done it for so long. Like I say I still play today. And the biggest compliment that I got was when a husband drove his wife over to play with me. And I said, Would you like to watch? And he says, Yeah. And I had to prove that with the wife prior to I told her next time, I'm going to invite your husband in the watch. And so this so he, he came in, he watched and he says he thought that was magnificent. He loved what I did with his wife. And they went home and probably had the best sex of their life. said, Well, what do I get out of it? Okay, I kind of got off topic there. What I get out of it is a feeling of knowing I've taken this person and given them something that they probably couldn't get somewhere else, it would have been more difficult. I've given them a great, great time. I've satisfied their needs, which satisfies my needs. And I've been able to put them in a place. When they came to me they were at one level and I put them in a better place when they left. In other words, my I feel my job as a top is to take someone and take them and give them some some attention that they they are craving and thriving for and leave them in a better place when they walk out of my place. I love it. And I blame that on aftercare. Something that is so important. That doesn't always happen. Mm hmm. When a person you finished playing with a person, you don't just tell them to get your coat on and get out of here. Or you don't tell them go in the other room. You can lay down and sleep now you spend time with them. You hop you put lay them down, you lay next to them. You hold them, you talk to them. You bring them some water. You allow Your you'll allow them to decompress because they're they're pretty wound up after all that their body may be limp, but their mind is still going with all the cool feelings that they experienced.
Unknown Speaker
Right. Well thank you You also reflect back to them, or at least, I like to try and reflect back to them something that I saw about them something that they revealed to me through the scene.
Unknown Speaker
Yes, that's an they've, you're gonna learn so much about him and that you you file that away and use it for the next time you see him again? Because if you did it once, you're certainly going to be able to do it again.
Unknown Speaker
Right, right. Well, and I love that, you know, in, in long term BDSM relationships, there's the possibility, you know, for change and for improvement, like one of the one of the things that I like to see in, in a sub is someone who's interested in expanding some part of themselves, whether they're, whether they're interested in expanding their ability to alchemize pain, sometimes it's, you know, an ability to sometimes play can be very, you know, can can support a person outside of the, of the dungeon in in growing their confidence level. And the interesting thing is, I think that I've seen, you know, yes, Dom's absolutely grow their confidence through through play, but I really have seen subs just blossom under that. Exquisite attention.
Unknown Speaker
Yes, you're absolutely right. I tell people, I've learned more from excuse me, I've learned more from the subs that I've played with, then the dominance that I've watched play. And that's so true that submissives will open up to you in so many ways, not just verbally, but just the way they they react to, to your touches. What I like to do, especially when I'm spanking is take people up in levels, I take them, I start spanking at a light level, it's more like a massage with a little, you know, pops and smacks and things like that. We're gonna get up and ramp it up until they think they can't take any more and then I kind of back it down a little bit, and then ramp it back up and go beyond what I was doing. And they can take it now. See, if somebody were to walk up and, and slap you across the face, it would not be you know, you would react to that and in a negative way, where if I tap you, and just keep tapping you harder and harder and harder. anywhere on your body, you will be you would be able to handle that a lot easier, a gradual increase of your pain threshold versus one big whack on your butt. That's, you know, you have to ramp it up slowly, then come back down, and then ramp it up again, and then come back down. And you keep doing that. And you'll be surprised you can really go and it's such a turn on for not only the dominant, but also on the submissive is what I found.
Unknown Speaker
Mm hmm. Absolutely. So I want to talk a little bit about mentorship. Because that's, you know, that's kind of where our Congress or our our conversation started, like 20 years ago, I came to your class on canes and something up flogged. No canes and crops. And crops. Yep, means crops. And, I mean, first of all, it was amazing to me, it was the first time I was ever at a class where people were talking about this kind of stuff, and showing each other how to do it. And each other how to do it in a way that was, you know, safe, sane, and consensual. Right and respectful and respectful. And, you know, at the end of the class, I was like, Oh my God, I want to because up until that time, I'd only been exploring my submissive side. But I was like, I'm interested in exploring my dominant side. And what I really appreciated, I mean, there's so many things I appreciate about that. But like, one of the things you really taught me was self control.
Unknown Speaker
Yes, it's critical. It's absolutely critical to have self control. If you can't control yourself how can you control somebody else? Yeah, yeah, there you are right there that's basically says it
Unknown Speaker
all well, and it you know, self control and just that peace around trust, like not only learning to Trust, to develop trust between myself and my submissive but learning how to actually trust myself. And one of the places that I really, you know, one of the things that you reflected back was, it's like, you don't have to know how to use everything, you just need to know how to use a few things really well. And that's actually something that's been really helpful to me across the board is it's like, you know, I, I have gone deeper in the things that I'm interested in, and let go the things that are like, this is an okay thing, but this, this really lights me up, this really sparks me. And just having, you know, having that instruction, and having that support, and having that mentorship to really be able to, you know, learn how to do something. Well. For instance, I didn't know if you were, you know, your your style is, this is how you do it. Now, go practice, right, they'll come back and show me, yeah, they'll go practice, okay, you're almost safe enough to, you know, bring in a body and a body, and we would play and that was amazing. And I'm curious what you would say to so many people today, I mean, the internet is amazing, in that we have access to so many different things. I'm wondering what you would say to somebody who, you know, has just been reading or watching YouTube videos. What would you say to them as their next step?
Unknown Speaker
Well, they're going to have to get hands on training. That's the things okay, you can read, but until you actually do it, you know, it's, you know, you can read about anything, and you can, you could probably fumble through it. But what you don't want to do is fumble through a scene, when you set up a scene for someone, you should have it together. But if you go in and you tell them, hey, I'm just starting out. So I'm not, I may not be very good. But I would like to try it. Are you willing to work with me? And we could both but I'm going to need a lot of feedback from you. And I'm going to need it immediately if I'm doing something wrong. Be humble. Tell them you know, be honest. That's the thing. I used to hear people say that they had, you know, 10 years experience as a dominant. And then I'd watched them plan I said, You got 10 years, and that's all you got. And it was like, wow, you know, so you know, don't don't, don't build yourself up and make them expect too much. If you're just starting out, let them know that you're starting out. And you know, and say and apologize up front, if I do something that wasn't nice or didn't feel well, you know, or didn't feel right. Because they will they it's both people's jobs, you both have a job this as the submissive. And as the dominant, you both have a job is to get the best scene possible that you can you can get and like I say communication is important. And be open and be honest, it's very important to do that. And some people can't do that. That's the problem. And so they'll make bad submissives. And they'll make bad dominance because they can't open up after they have to open up and be be free to tell each other what's going on. Otherwise, you're not going to know where the person's at. And therefore you're going to probably break overstep some boundary. Or, you know, it's not going to be fun. It'll be a bad scene. I had one bad scene, and it was because I didn't practice. I didn't. I didn't pay attention. These it was a is a let's see, it was uh huh. It's a cross set up. But it was right under an air conditioning duct. Oh, no. It was fine. You know, we were playing having a blast. And of course she's naked and I'm not I'm not so it's not bothering me. Also, the air conditioner came on. And I saw her trembling. And I looked up and I saw that and I walked up close to her. And I put my arms around us as you're freezing, aren't you? And she says yeah, I said alright, we're done. But we're going to pick this up at another another time later today when we got a piece of equipment that isn't sitting right underneath a air conditioning duck. Yeah, but that was my fault. I should have saw that and not and either move the equipment or, or just wait waited for another piece of equipment. And to open up. And now the only scene that that that went bust, and I remember it and and I never forget it because I was so embarrassed that I did not
Unknown Speaker
you know, she didn't you hadn't stopped at the scene already.
Unknown Speaker
Well, I I played in this facility, it was a place called the edge in Washington DC. Not too far from my home. In fact, I've been there so many times. And I've been there so many times and played on all the equipment except this one piece of equipment. And unfortunately, I didn't look up and I don't when I do my single tails, and I do all the whip cracking and stuff, I have to make sure there's no ceiling fans and you know, pay attention. But I wasn't, I wasn't doing any whip stuff. So I was doing floggers, which are a lot smaller. And so I didn't I didn't think to look up and really pay attention to the air conditioning duck, and bang. It just went bad and but I still am friends with the person. And she we played a lot a lot of times after that. So
Unknown Speaker
I love that. So um, oh my gosh, what a great and rich conversation
Unknown Speaker
and great to catch up with you again, too. This is so cool. So good.
Unknown Speaker
So just, um, if there is one thing, like somebody just kind of tuned in, if there's one thing you wanted somebody to walk away with, from this conversation, what might that be?
Unknown Speaker
Let me stop for a second and think about that. That's, that's a good question. That is a very good question. I think if somebody had to get one thing
Unknown Speaker
I would say
Unknown Speaker
when you when you go into, into when you go into this and start looking at, at people and they you find what you want out of the BDSM scene, and you're out there trying to get it, just remember that words and deeds should match. If somebody tells you something, and then it doesn't happen, or they, they say that you you tell them, hey, I want to I want to do this. And they don't do that. When you see that has started to happen. I lose faith in people, you know, when they don't deliver what they say they're going to do. So if somebody tells you something, you should be able to take that to the bank. Especially if they're they're expecting you to lend them their your body so that they can do things really cool things are really terrible things to it. And so if a person is telling you one thing, and they're not, you know, because words, words don't mean anything, it's actions that actually mean mean stuff. So you need to be more aware of if a person's words and deeds match up. And then that's what I think. And if something doesn't feel right, it isn't. And so just shut it down. You don't have to take any just because you said you want to try something, if it's not working out, just shut it down, you have the power. The submissive is always in charge of what happens or fails to happen. Because if something does is doesn't happen the way you're expecting, then you can you can stop it, you can stop a scene and you know, at least that's the rules that I've been brought up with. And that's what I tell people, you stop it if you don't like what's happening, if it doesn't feel right. If it doesn't feel right to you, it isn't so just shut it down and be safe. That's the most important thing is to be safe and make sure the person you're playing with is being safe.
Unknown Speaker
Mm hmm. Got it. Yeah. So just in wrapping it up some of the big topics that we've been talking about and our communication, trust. And as you were just so eloquently saying, you know, making sure that people's words and deeds match up. And I would say that, you know, on both ends of the flogger that a submissive needs to you know, have their actions and words match so that as a dominant you can trust them by Justice trust needs to be on the on both sides of the flogger. Exactly. So yeah. So anyway, oh my gosh, what a fabulous conversation. I am so so excited to to connect with you and to have you on my podcast. And for those of you who've been listening, thank you so much. For listening to the better sex podcast, I am Deborah Kat, and I have been talking to my longtime friend and mentor, Ken Zane. And it's been a really, really just lovely conversations super informative. And if you want to hear more conversations like this, please subscribe, and follow and comments. If you have any questions about anything that you've been that you've heard today, please go ahead and drop me a line and we'll be glad to answer that. You will find the in the show notes you will find some of the resources we've talked about Black Rose, the resource pool, and you'll find links to those and to myself and Ken, and again, Ken, thank you so much for this conversation.
Unknown Speaker
My pleasure. Deborah, I enjoyed it. It's brought back a lot of old memories.
Unknown Speaker
Thank you
Transcribed by https://otter.ai