Understanding Control in Relationship with Dr. Tom Murray
Is there such a thing as ‘ethical porn’?
In this episode of The Better Sex Podcast, I talk with Sex Therapist Dr. Tom Murray to explore this question as well as pornography trends, erotophobia and different control dynamics as they play out within relationships .
Along the way, hear more of Dr. Tom’s story of becoming a sex therapist including time spent with pornography distribution giving him an insider’s view to the industry. Besides exploring the relationship between societal norms, expectations, fantasies and desires, we take a deep dive into control dynamics, namely over-controlling, in relationships, a topic he writes about in his book, “Making Nice with Naughty: An Intimacy Guide.” Dr. Murray gives some ways to bring more playfulness into the bedroom to deepen intimacy and of course, have better sex.
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Making Nice with Naughty Youtube https://www.youtube.com/channel/UC78viRgDA05daSGFVD4QoPg
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In our commitment accessibility, help make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who like to read rather than listen to podcasts. The transcription is far from perfect, and in some cases quite amusing. As we grow edited transcripts are on the list in the meantime please enjoy.
Welcome to the better Sex podcast. My name is Deborah Kat and I am your shameless host. This is the better Sex podcast where we have unfiltered conversations about sex and relationship. These conversations are of an adult nature and may not be appropriate for all ages, so please listen with care. We're here to support you in knowing that there are many ways of having sex in relationships so that you can figure out what works for you and have the sex and relationships on your terms. I truly believe that a sexy world creates a happier and a safer world. If you want to do your part to create a sexy and safe world, please hit like, subscribe and leave a comment. Today we're going to dive into the world of my guest, doctor Tom Murray.
Deborah [00:06:54]:
A distinguished figure in ultimate relationships, he's been featured in many venues including the Washington Post, Huffington Post, and the Daily Mail. He is a distinguished and dynamic presenter at national conferences and esteemed institutions. He seamlessly blends contemplative psychology and stoic philosophy with conventional methods. In his clinical practice, his award winning book making Nice with Nadi explores the intricate dynamics of self control and its impact on sexual and intimate relationships. I am super excited to be having this conversation with you, Doctor Tom. For my listeners, I just want you to know that he is a new and exciting connection. And I'm looking forward to learning more about who you are, what you're up to in the world, as well as your book and the ideas in your book. So first question is always, how did you get here?
Dr. Tom Murray [00:08:07]:
Oh, my gosh. Well, how? I became a therapist. I often say I became a therapist because I had 18 years of apprenticeship, also known as childhood. And for a lot of therapists, I think they go into the profession either trying to figure out their families or trying to figure themselves out. And certainly my family was a big reason that I went into this field. And I think part of along that journey was also a real keen interest in sex therapy. And so eventually I got a PhD in couple in family counseling and then was able to pursue the Asex certification as a sex therapist and now a sex therapist supervisor.
Deborah [00:09:03]:
Yeah, it's always so interesting to me that, like, sex isn't a bigger part of therapy in general and marriage and family counseling in specific. And so, yeah, we're both shaking our head.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:09:21]:
You're absolutely right. It floors me. And I think that contributes to a profession that has a lot of their own anxiety around talking about sex. Right. And of course, for most people, their sexual identity, their sexual expression has a lot go is a lot about how they see themselves and to just look over it or pass it without exploration, I think is missing a lot of opportunity there.
Deborah [00:09:57]:
Yeah, absolutely. I'm curious, like, how did your book come. How did your book come to be?
Dr. Tom Murray [00:10:06]:
Oh, gosh. Well, making nice with naughty. I had that title long before I had the content. It just came to me, you know, it just had this kind of ring to it. And so I thought I was going to write a different book about using the rules of improvisational theater to improve your sex life. So that's still, you know, it's still a possibility. I might explore that.
Deborah [00:10:39]:
I have to pause you there for just a moment because that is such a, like, that's such a great idea. You know, bringing play to the bedroom is such a big part of what I do with couples. And one of the big rules around improvisational theater as I know it, is the yes game.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:10:59]:
That's right.
Deborah [00:11:00]:
And I can only imagine how much, how fun that could be in the bedroom because I think, you know, finding the yes is such a big part of really having people have a sex life that suits them and has a sex life that feels good to them.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:11:23]:
Yes. And part of that. Yes. And the principle is building on the yes. So in improvisational theater, your partner makes a bid, and then you add to it. You agree to it, and then you add to it. And I think in many ways, that concept really still informed what eventually became the focus of the book, which is that the over controlled temperament, the people who have a lot of self control may, in fact, have a harder time saying yes to things if what they're saying yes to may lead to a unknowable or unpredictable consequence. And so where improvisational theater just really encourages you to trust the process.
Deborah [00:12:15]:
So when you say over controlled personality, like, what is that? What does that mean?
Dr. Tom Murray [00:12:24]:
Yeah, yeah. Over controlled temperament is a continuum, right? So it's a. It's a continuum between, there's the under controlled and the over controlled. And. And I use the example of introversion. Extroversion are two of the more famous temperaments and ones that are most familiar to people. And so, in a similar way, the over controlled, under controlled temperament is just another facet of a personality that is stable over time. That's what temperaments are.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:12:59]:
They tend to be stable over time. For the over controlled temperament, it really is. When someone has too much self control, they tend to be rule oriented, having strong opinions about how the world should be, must be, and has to be versus the under controlled. They tend to be mood oriented. So they're way more likely to be emotionally expressive, very large with their emotions. They are willing to do things like sing karaoke at a bar and not need a drink. They're going to take risks in ways that over controlled people, they may take risks, but they're always quite calculated, right? So they may go bungee jumping, but you can bet they spent months studying the company that they're using to do the bungee jump or doing the skydiving. And so, like I said, with the yes and is that they tend to be much more emotionally inhibited than those under controlled people because they don't like uncertainty, they don't like unpredictability.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:14:19]:
I'm using the word they as if I'm nothing, not one of them. And I'm definitely an over controlled person.
Deborah [00:14:27]:
So how does nice fit into that paradigm?
Dr. Tom Murray [00:14:34]:
Yeah. So for a lot of children, they're constantly told to live within a narrow definition of what's acceptable, right? And if they don't, they're told that they're being naughty, right? And so this concept of making nice with naughty is another way of saying, let's befriend, let's make nice with this thing that we were told our whole lives was bad in order to have some adventure, right? In order to have mystery, in order to have some of the elements that are necessary for eroticism, that for a lot of over controlled people can be quite intimidating, in fact.
Deborah [00:15:23]:
So in terms of over controlled and how that would show up in the bedroom or how that shows up in maybe. How does that show up in life?
Dr. Tom Murray [00:15:37]:
Oh, quite well. In fact, most of the world loves people with the over controlled temperament, right? Because we're the ones, we're responsible, we're diligent, we're reliable, we tend to be more detailed oriented. So if you want a bridge built, you want an over controlled person building that bridge, right? So over controlled people get a lot of positive feedback in the world out there. However, if the over controlled temperament is going to be a problem for someone, where does it tend to show up in their intimate and sexual relationships? So, for example, the over controlled people are more likely to go behind their partner to rearrange the dishwasher because it wasn't done right.
Deborah [00:16:34]:
You know, it's so funny, because I've been thinking about this a lot. So in our initial conversation, we talked a lot about. About the dishwasher thing. And because there is a right way to do this. I mean, there's a lot of things. There's a lot of places in life where there's no right way to do it. But like the dishwasher, anyway, I may have some tendencies towards open control, but, yeah, so that's the place where it can. And as funny as that example is, I know in my own personal life, the dishwasher has actually been a point of contention to the point where we actually got rid of the dishwasher.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:17:22]:
Wow.
Deborah [00:17:25]:
Because, you know, I mean, you read the directions and they say there's a way to do it. And, you know, my partner and I just, he. I don't know if it was the way in which we had the conversations about the dishwasher or that he just didn't believe that there was a correct way to do that or whatnot, but it was just such a contentious thing that that's what we ended up doing. We just threw the dishwasher out, which I don't think is a very over controlled thing to do. But anyway, I digress.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:18:02]:
Well, yeah, I mean, if you're on the receiving end of the critique around the dishes, right. You can see how that might be impair a relationship, you know, someone, partners of people who are over controlled are more likely to feel like there's nothing I can do. That's right. That I'm constantly given feedback that I'm not measuring up, you see? Or it can show up differently. People who are over controlled tend to have a heightened level of moral superiority. And so for some, that might be expressed as all porn, all masturbation is, or any fantasizing about anyone other than your spouse is prohibited. Right. So they may have very strict rules around that.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:19:04]:
And of course, if you're on the receiving end and maybe there are conditions in your relationship that have led to a lack of sexual intimacy between you, etcetera. And now you're sexually inhibited to be able to express yourself because you don't want to hear the critique around these things like masturbation, foreign use, fantasy, etcetera.
Deborah [00:19:35]:
Yeah, it seems like. So it might be that in having those conversations, what I'm hearing you say is that the receiver is hearing nothing but critique. And so the critique is not landing in a very opportune way. It's not landing in a way that supports either the person critiquing or being critiqued and ultimately not supporting the relationship. So what do you suggest that over controlled people do in the situation where going back to the dishwasher?
Dr. Tom Murray [00:20:17]:
Yeah.
Deborah [00:20:18]:
Their partner is not loading it according to the rule.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:20:25]:
Well, in that situation, I would rely a little bit more on the evidence. So are the how the dishwasher is being loaded? Are the dishes still getting clean? If the dishes aren't getting clean, then that's the evidence. That's the reliable feedback that a new way of doing things is required. Otherwise, you're rewashing the dishes. But for a lot of over controlled people, they want assurances that whatever they do is the right way. Because if you do it the right way, you're avoiding any potential consequence in the future that might point to an inadequacy in the individual. So, you know, sexually, for example, I have a lot of clients who, they may have not been able to get an erection one time, and so now they avoid any kind of physical intimacy with their partner, any kind of even some emotional intimacy, for fear that their partner may then be turned on and be interested in having sex. But the person with the erectile issue is too afraid that they won't be able to get an erection in the future.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:21:45]:
So they don't try to do anything if they aren't absolutely certain what the outcome is going to be?
Deborah [00:21:53]:
And if you were to bring in the yes and principle, how would that change? How would that change fear of not getting an erection?
Dr. Tom Murray [00:22:06]:
Yeah. So for me, it's shifting the mindset. So when there's this hyper focus on the erection, or maybe it's an orgasm or an ejaculation, if there's such a focus on those, then sex becomes performative. Right. It's not pleasure based. And so the yes. And is saying, okay, well, I don't have an erection in this moment, so what can I do instead in order for us to have a good time in this moment, right. And I give the example of two fingers, right? Two fingers are still pretty rigid.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:22:44]:
Right. You can still do a lot with two fingers.
Deborah [00:22:46]:
Right.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:22:47]:
So you're building on what. What it is that you're able to do, but also privileging pleasure over a particular outcome as the signifier that what you're doing is somehow legitimate. Right? So for heterosexual couples, penis and vagina penetration, is that what they've reduced their sexual relationship to in order for it to have any legitimacy? You know, that's. That we would call that a consequence of a fixed mindset, right. That it's not flexible, it's not able to accept reality as it is. That brings in the contemplative psychology. Right. To accept reality as it is and add to it.
Deborah [00:23:38]:
Well, now that you brought it up, I'm curious if you could talk a little bit more about what contemplative psychology is.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:23:47]:
Contemplative psychology is really the application of buddhist principles to understanding how the mind works. And so acceptance, for example, or non resistance is an important quality of the buddhist tradition. And, you know, this is just my personal opinion. Even though I'm not buddhist, I feel very confident in saying that no other group of people has studied the mind as deeply as. For as long as the people who have been able to sit on a cushion for hours and hours and hours over a millennia. And their observations of how that mind works, I think, is so useful to understanding human suffering. And in my case, as a sex therapist, human suffering related to sex and sexuality.
Deborah [00:24:56]:
I love the idea of accepting what is. I mean, you can't fight reality.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:25:03]:
Or as Byron Katie says, if you do, you lose. But only 100% of the time.
Deborah [00:25:08]:
Exactly. And it's so interesting because what you brought up about the idea that one time something happened, and so the stress or the anxiety of the possibility that that happens again, the toll that. That can take on a relationship or. Or sexuality, because we get focused on that one thing that's right. At the expense of all others.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:25:40]:
Yeah.
Deborah [00:25:42]:
And I think it's, you know, as you were saying, being able to be like, okay, so this is what's happening. I'm not going to argue with it. I'm not going to, you know, but I'm going to look for what is possible in this place. And expanding the definition of what is successful sex. I mean, that's a big part of my practice.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:26:06]:
Yes, that's right. Yeah. And to kind of go back to it, it's like there's this element of sexual perfectionism that I find pretty pronounced with, among my clients with the over controlled temperament. And sexual perfectionism comes in four flavors. Right. It's the. I have to be sexually perfect. My partner has to be sexually perfect.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:26:34]:
I think my partner thinks I have to be sexually perfect, and then society expects me to be sexually perfect. And so when I'm listening to clients during that initial intake, I'm often listening for which one or ones of those flavors of sexual perfectionism is showing up. So, for example, earlier I talked about the client, you know, maybe a client whose partner doesn't want him to use porn or to masturbate. Right. That's. I need my partner to be sexually perfect. Right.
Deborah [00:27:13]:
Sorry, I just want to make this. Make sure I got this. So the partner who is saying, I don't want you to watch porn needs their partner to be a certain way. They need them to be the kind of person who doesn't watch porn.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:27:30]:
That's right. And so that sexual perfectionism is then projected onto their partner. Right. Who's doing those things. Versus if I were to say I need to have an erection every time I have sex, as if a penis is a dildo, then that means I have sexual perfectionism or that I need to be perfect sexually. But of course, there's also these cultural expectations around sexuality. Culture says I can't have a belly or my labia are too long, or whatever it is that we get from. From culture.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:28:19]:
And that may not be our experience. Right. And so we then internalize that judgment, and that may get in our way of even trying to be sexually expressive.
Deborah [00:28:34]:
Yeah. I think one of the things I see where culture really affects sexuality is this idea that it's like essentially two people are coming together. There's escalation, there's penetration, there's climax. Both people are climaxing together. And then, you know, the next scene is at the dinner table or something like that. And. And it's just like, you know, my experience is it's not by numbers. You know, it like, there's kind of ebbs and flows and, you know, sometimes everybody climaxes.
Deborah [00:29:12]:
Sometimes nobody climaxes. Sometimes, you know, one person climaxes in the beginning, and then there's a second climax and a third climax. And so it just. It's such a disservice that that seems to be where we get most of our information about sexuality. That in, you know, unfortunately, porn has become educational versus entertainment. And I'm wondering what you've seen in your practice.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:29:43]:
Oh, I think you said it brilliantly, that unfortunately, in a culture that really suppresses sexual education and doesn't want to engage in things like porn literacy, where we're talking about why porn is entertainment, it's not education. That not the average penis size is not ten inches long.
Deborah [00:30:10]:
It's not.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:30:14]:
Or that you have to be able to have penetrative sex for 40 minutes before an orgasm, or that most people with a vulvas have orgasms just with penetration alone. There's so many of these myths that are repeated in porn that if one doesn't have that literacy around it, then they can easily assume, oh, you know, women must love the money shot, you know, having ejaculate all over their face, because that's everything that I see. Or again, I should be able to expect my partner to have an orgasm every time, if not multiple times. Or, you know, I should be able.
Deborah [00:31:12]:
To have a heart on for 40 minutes, and it needs to look like this. You know, one of my favorite conversations to have with clients is to say, you know, there's a whole crew of people who have their attention on that hard on. Right. Like there's a buffers.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:31:31]:
Yeah.
Deborah [00:31:32]:
People who are working on the lighting and the makeup. And I. I mean, I thought it was pretty interesting to find out that hardons often have makeup. Like, of course, that makes perfect sense now that I think about it. But, like, you know, just the. The rate of artificial artifice around. Around that hard on. And then, you know, for my clients who feel like, oh, but I don't.
Deborah [00:32:01]:
I can't do that. It's like, you're not supposed to be able to do that unless you're willing to hire another 20 people.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:32:11]:
Precisely.
Deborah [00:32:12]:
So I digress there a little bit.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:32:15]:
No, no, I think that that's spot on. And you often, porn uses tremecs, the injections into the penis so that they can have an erection that lasts many hours because they're taking breaks. They're taking. They still have to abide by the labor laws. A lot of porn is done in California. There's a lot of rules around the production of adult content, and you can't. You need something. You need a reliable erection.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:32:49]:
So actors will use those injections to maintain those erections.
Deborah [00:32:57]:
So I know we didn't mention it in your bio, but one of the things that you do is that you're a porn screener.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:33:08]:
I guess you could say that, yes. I work for a major distributor that is committed to only distributing what I would consider ethical porn. And like this week, I watched one that I'm going to reject because there were situations in the video where it disrupted the female actor's ability to withdraw consent if they wanted to. And the scene was a fellatio, and the male actor wrapped his leg around her head to kind of force it down, and that's an automatic rejection. This video also had things like, you know, we call it choking, but it's actually strangulation. Choking, for listeners, implies that there's something inside your throat. Everything else, if it's outside, it's strangulation. And strangulation in porn is becoming more and more common, oddly.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:34:30]:
But, you know, I just attended a conference, the sex therapy conference, and one of the speakers talked about how the evidence does suggest that there is no safe level of strangulation. And despite people who say that they can do it safely, there was some more recent research to find that it does seem to have an effect, deleterious effect, on the people that are on the receiving end of it.
Deborah [00:35:00]:
Yeah, I mean, I personally know someone who comes from a background of informed consent and bdsm and everything else, and they ended up with a brain issue around it. So I am with you that there is not. That is not a. That is not a practice, I suggest.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:35:23]:
No, no, it's too risky of a practice. And one of the studies they looked at comparing these were all college students, those who had no experience with strangulation and those, on average, who experienced it, experienced it around four times a month, and they were just having them do cognitive tasks. And the ones who had that strangulation experience were performed less on the cognitive test. And so even again, how often is it occurring? A lot of these people probably don't even think, oh, it's just so short amount of time. It's imperceptible. They may not even register any cognitive decline. But these tests are sensitive enough that they're able to detect that there is an effect.
Deborah [00:36:23]:
What do you think is the. Why do people do it? Like, what is the. Is it the excitement? Is it the danger is it the amount of trust that it takes for someone? Why do you think it's so exciting and something that is part of people's play?
Dr. Tom Murray [00:36:46]:
I think fundamentally, people want to feel alive, and there's nothing that will make you feel alive than experiencing any kind of proximity to death. Right. And then, of course, this has been known for millennia. I mean, that's, you know, the gladiators in the coliseum, right? You know, they were such a draw because it was this representation of death. And I think that's one of the reasons why we have such a love affair with violent movies. Isn't it interesting? Just kind of a soapbox moment here. But isn't it interesting that we're much more concerned about children watching people have sex then we are having children watch people being blown up or having cities destroyed or, you know, it's so strange.
Deborah [00:37:50]:
Yeah. I support that soapbox moment because it is something that I am constantly surprised by and constantly like, why would you want to watch that? I mean, I would much rather watch somebody in pleasure than someone in pain, but, yeah. So just coming back to where the conversation started with porn, I mean, first of all, I'm really happy to hear that there are companies out there that are considering what they want to put out into the public and how it affects the public. So I'm really happy to hear that. And I'm curious in terms of when somebody watches a lot of porn, there seems to be a rise in the use of the phrase porn addiction, and I haven't really seen much in the way of evidence around it actually being a thing. So I'm just kind of. It seems to be something that partners use against each other more than. At least that's been my experience.
Deborah [00:39:11]:
I'm wondering if you could say something about that.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:39:14]:
Yeah, I'll talk. There's two pieces that I would want to address. The first is, you know, ASEC, the American association for Sex Educators, counselors, and therapists put out a position paper, I think, around 2015, maybe that just was saying that there isn't empirical evidence to support that as a diagnostic label that should be adopted by the healthcare community. Now, certainly some people can develop problematic relationships with porn where they are not attending to important activities in their life. But if someone were washing their hands 100 times a day, we wouldn't call that a hand washing addiction. I think that this tendency to want to label things as addictions, in part because it does help to absolve people of any responsibility, but it does also give others a focal point for remedying the situation. Now, in my practice, when a spouse may diagnose their other spouse, the other spouse with porn addiction, I find that there's a high prevalence of what I call erotophobia. So if someone is erotophobic, they don't.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:40:50]:
Any amount of porn use is unacceptable. Any amount of personal pleasuring is unacceptable. Any amount of fantasizing is unacceptable, then I would argue that that is erotophobic. And as a profession, we tend not to focus on the one doing the focusing. Right. Is that. Could it be that there's some erotophobia occurring? This similar form of rigidity around what it means to have a partner be turned on by someone else, other than the complainant, if you will, and it breaks the illusion that, of specialness. And I think that that's also behind it.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:41:42]:
We want to feel special. And if our partner gets turned on by someone else, does that shatter our specialness? I personally don't think so, but a lot of people do.
Deborah [00:41:55]:
Yeah, I would agree with you. I think that there's so many different places that we can whet our appetite and still, you know, still turn to our partners for, you know, for the satiation. And, I mean, you know, turn on. I like to, you know, turn on is, in my world, is. I equate that to be aliveness. And, you know, because it is that place where we get excited, we get passionate, you know, and. And we can do those things about our partners. We can do those things about, you know, in our bedrooms, but we can also be excited and passionate about projects.
Deborah [00:42:46]:
We can be excited and passionate about being at the ocean, like, all of these different places, and so being able to bring that energy home. I like to say I'm not really concerned where you get your appetite, but I do want you to come and share it with me.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:43:07]:
Right, right.
Deborah [00:43:08]:
But, like. And, you know, does it take away specialness? Maybe, but it's. I'll go to the flower analogy of there's all sorts of different beautiful colors and flowers and smells, and, you know, that's part of being. Part of enjoying those things is part of being alive.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:43:31]:
Yes. Yeah. I'm not pretty. You know, if my partner said to me that she fantasizes about sex with someone else while having sex with me, that would not at all concern me, because if sex is really about pleasure, then however she's able to have a better time with me. That's my focus, is that we're enjoying ourselves. And however we get there, assuming that it's consensual, is totally fine, and some stuff is just not it's not any of my business. And that is like, what is her fantasy life? That's none of my business.
Deborah [00:44:20]:
Well, do you find it exciting when she shares it with you?
Dr. Tom Murray [00:44:25]:
Oh, yes, for sure. I personally do. And I talk about this in the book, that opening yourself up to sharing fantasy is a huge expression of vulnerability. Vulnerability being one of those things that over controlled people are very allergic to. But if they can push through the awkwardness again, something they have a high allergy to, it can be a pathway to deeper intimacy, which is what I also think they're craving, but equally afraid of.
Deborah [00:45:01]:
I want to jump back for just a second. When you were talking about pleasure and being part of sex or being the point of sex. And I may have misheard this, but I know that in one of. You know, one of the things that I often see with my clients is that they're coming to sex for different reasons. Right. So maybe one person is coming for, like, stress release and the other is coming for intimacy. And those two things can be the. Yes, and.
Deborah [00:45:31]:
But they have a little bit of a. Their starting places are a little different.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:45:35]:
Yes. Yeah. I often will broaden that conversation to relationshiping in general, that people can get into a relationship, the same relationship, but for different reasons, to get a different set of needs met within that relationship. And so I think sex is similar, that sex can be an opportunity, that is a solution, if you will, for a variety of issues. Boredom, having fun, stress relief, going to sleep, pregnancy. There's a whole host of reasons for people to do it. But when we start to make the other person's reason, when we start to police the other person's reason, then I think it can create problems.
Deborah [00:46:47]:
So hearing you say that, I'm kind of curious. So you've got a couple, they come in, one person is over controlled, and they are looking to their partners. They've got their finger pointed in that direction and they are trying to control that. Where do you start? How do you start to unwind that with a couple?
Dr. Tom Murray [00:47:12]:
Well, I'm particularly interested in the pattern over the course of their relationship. How did that pattern become entrenched? Often the over controlled temperament becomes particularly amplified when children enter the picture. There's this heightened sense of needing to manage the children, but also to manage external factors that may impact the children. Right. And sometimes then the other partner feels that they're disengaging because there's again, so many rules around what has to happen in order to make life happen. And it runs the risk then of what they call weaponized incompetence. So the person who's disengaged starts to be less and less involved, and that then disrupts attractiveness. So the person, the incompetent person now is perceived as less attractive.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:48:26]:
The over controlled person is seen as more of a nag or a criticizer. And so I'm looking at kind of what is their particular pattern, but then also what is it that is their vision for their relationship. So, within any. Let's use a marriage, for example, with any marriage, there are three entities, right? There are the spouses, respectively, and then there's the relationship. And what is it that they are advocating for relative to the relationship? All too often, people are just very much focused on advocating for their own needs without a consideration of what's in the best interest of the relationship.
Deborah [00:49:11]:
So that makes me curious. Like, what are some of the things? What are some of the things that would be in the best, the best interest of the relationship?
Dr. Tom Murray [00:49:22]:
I use this. There are these four c's, although one's not a circumental, and that's collaboration, coordination, consideration, and kindness. Right. Those are in the best interest of the relationship. Collaboration, coordination, consideration, and kindness. Unfortunately, a lot of my colleagues focus on sacrifice and compromise, and to me, I don't gravitate to those words because sacrifice and compromise assumes that you're on opposing teams.
Deborah [00:50:01]:
Right?
Dr. Tom Murray [00:50:01]:
Right. Whereas collaboration, coordination, consideration, kindness really are about being on the same team.
Deborah [00:50:12]:
So this is a little bit off topic, but it's something that I know that you do, and I'm super curious about that. And can you talk a little bit about the discernment process and what that's.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:50:23]:
About and, and why it's useful after sex therapy? Discernment counseling is my other joy as a service that I provide. Discernment counseling is a particular alternative to couples therapy for the past 25, maybe 35 years. Sometimes. I think 25 years ago was the 1970s. I don't know if you or the listeners feel the same way. There's a recognition within the counseling therapy profession that it's not all that successful. Our success rate is piss poor relative to its utilization. And when we looked at why does it have such a terrible effectiveness rate compared to, like, regular psychotherapy? It's because a significant portion of those going to couples counseling are either ambivalent about staying in the relationship or have already decided to exit the relationship.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:51:36]:
And so couples counseling was specifically designed on the premise that the people wanted to save the relationship. And so discernment counseling is a. An alternative that takes those other couples that are either ambivalent or have already decided and offers them different services, either divorce counseling, if they've already decided, or the discernment counseling, if they are ambivalent. Over the course of a maximum of five sessions, they only get five sessions. They meet with me primarily individually, where we talk about what's been going on in their relationship, with really the focus on them recognizing their own contributions to the problems that got them to the point where divorce is a possibility. And so it's much more one on one. And it fits my temperament because I tend to be one of those therapists that are much more of a tell you how it is, no beating around the bush and occasional karate chop to the throat kind of therapist. And, you know, because if they don't acknowledge their contributions to the problems that got them to this point, they're going to repeat it in the next relationship.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:52:49]:
So they can either fix it in this relationship or they can fix it in the next relationship. So to go back to the early example, someone using weaponized incompetence, which is. Tends to be much more of a male way of coping with demand. It's like, you know, perhaps your spouse was not interested in sex with you because of how you were showing up, right. That often people who are reporting low sexual desire, they often assume something's wrong with them, right. That there's something medically wrong with them. I think they often have good judgment, right. That maybe they're just not turned on because there's conditions in their lives that are just unattractive.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:53:44]:
And so helping people to see that they participate in creating these problems. And for the partner who may be on the fence about leaving, if their spouse were to take a great deal of responsibility, would that make a difference in terms of deciding whether to commit to six months of intensive couples therapy? And if not, then separation and divorce is the second option. Or maintain the status quo, which most people don't choose, but you'd be surprised how often they do is the third option.
Deborah [00:54:26]:
So basically, it's a process in which people can look at what their real options are, how committed to playing full out or being part of the process they are, and actually what kind of outcome do they want? Do they want to separate? Do they want things to be better? Or when it comes down to it, is it just, you know, are they willing to stay in a. In, in the situation without it changing much?
Dr. Tom Murray [00:54:57]:
Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes that happens. I see that more among older people, they're more likely to maintain the status quo because maybe one partner doesn't have much time left, you know, in the grand scheme of things. And they're like, you know what? I can wait it out. And I don't judge that people have good reasons for it, but I find that once the leaning out partner feels really heard, feels like the leaning in partner has gotten what it was like for the leaning out partner, then there's a willingness to reconsider couples therapy. All too often, there's this rush to doing couples therapy when there hasn't yet been the taking responsibility conversation first. And so it's hard to be hopeful about a new future with someone or a different future with someone if they haven't yet taken any responsibility.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:56:09]:
But also, if you're the leaning out partner, part of that responsibility might be owning that the dishes going in the dishwasher a certain way every time is not that big of a deal, because over controlled people will generally prefer, they can easily convince themselves that being single is a better option, because then they don't have to accommodate, they don't have to make modifications. They don't have to adjust to someone else's preferences. Right.
Deborah [00:56:50]:
So I'm kind of curious now we have the dishwasher model. Are there some other indications that one might be an over controlled person slash partner?
Dr. Tom Murray [00:57:08]:
Yeah. An example is someone who has the fixated routine, daily routine. So they have oatmeal every morning. They want to read the paper every morning. If anybody disrupts their routine, they might get agitated, right? Maybe even more than just agitated. They might get angry. We call that emotional leakage. Time is a common fixation, I should say.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:57:37]:
All over controlled people are hoarders. What they're hoarding, though, is different. So all over controlled people are hoarding safety and security. And so the hoarders that we see on television, they hoard stuff under the assumption of I might need it in the future, or someone I really love might need it in the future. So I want to have the safety and security of knowing I can be able to meet my need or someone else's need. Where other over controlled people might hoard time. I got to save time. I got to be on time.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:58:17]:
So there's this real strong fixation around time others might hoard for me. For the longest time, I was hoarding professional certifications. I had more letters after my name than any one person deserved. Thinking that, oh, if I had just one more credential, just one more credential that would provide me with greater safety.
Deborah [00:58:43]:
And security, I'd really know what I was doing so that nobody got hurt, that's exactly right.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:58:50]:
Yeah. Uh, another one is. I use the term psychological obesity. This. This over controlled people are often high consumers of information, right. But they often don't take action on the information they're consuming. So it's like, I have to know. I kind of.
Dr. Tom Murray [00:59:11]:
To your point, I have to know, uh, the. All the ins and outs of something before I take action on it. Right. But that can be very paralyzing. They often don't take action because there is courage. Right. It's still needed. And I love courage over confidence, because courage says that fear is necessary, it's necessary to be present, and yet you still take action.
Deborah [00:59:41]:
So if somebody's heard this conversation and they're like, oh, my goodness, that's me, what is. What's something that they can do or to support themselves and their partnerships in improving or lessening that grip.
Dr. Tom Murray [01:00:05]:
Yeah. So one of the things they can do is they can look up radically open dialectical behavior therapy, also known as RoDBT. Radically open dialectical behavior therapy. And what I love about RoDBT is that it's highly skills based. And so there are classes all around the world that people can join that goes through each one of the 30 skills that are meant to create. Thomas lynch, the originator of it, calls it a life worth sharing. So maybe if I am a little more flexible with my dishwasher, I will have a life worth sharing and a dishwasher. And then there are also certified ro DBT practitioners like I am.
Dr. Tom Murray [01:01:02]:
And I wish I could say that there are tons of books out there on the Ro DBT and the over controlled temperament. My book is the only book that is written for the general public. And of course, my book specifically is around sex and intimate relationships.
Deborah [01:01:22]:
Beautiful. So in a moment, I'm going to invite you to just, you know, if there is one thing that you wanted people to get out of our conversation, what might that be? So I'm going to give you a moment as I let people know how they can support the better sex podcast, because sex is a complex subject and it can make or break a relationship. And unfortunately, most of us don't grow up in an environment where talking about sex is welcomed. That's why I offer the sexual mastery breakthrough session. It's a personalized, one on one experience for a more satisfying sex life. Because let's face it, a podcast is just not enough. Even as good a podcast as this one is, it's not enough. You need practices and support.
Deborah [01:02:14]:
And if you're ready for tools and tips, then I highly suggest that you check it out. There is a link in the show notes. And please, I love to talk to people about, about these things because honestly, life is too short for bad sex. So on that note, I'm going to invite you. What is it that you would like people to get out of our conversation?
Dr. Tom Murray [01:02:41]:
I'll leave the listeners with a quote from Patrick Thomas Malone and Thomas Patrick Malone. These were two psychiatrists who wrote a book called the Windows of Experience. And in there, they say our addiction to familiarity underlies many of our unhealthy ways of being in the world. And I think that that's particularly true for over controlled people. That we have a high addiction to safety, comfort, predictability, certainty, and that stifles, if not suffocates, the fire of desire or eroticism. And so it's breaking free of that need to know, breaking free of that absolute expectation of safety, security, comfort, familiarity. That is the doorway through which they can enter to have a more meaningful and fulfilling sexual relationship.
Deborah [01:03:42]:
I love that. Thank you so much. My guest, doctor Tom Murray. Please follow him. Where can people find you?
Dr. Tom Murray [01:03:52]:
Yeah, they can find me on Instagram after tomurray. Also my website@drtommurray.com and they certainly can listen to our podcast, the making Nice with naughty podcast that's available on YouTube. And we go through each one of the chapters of the book that the viewers can follow along.
Deborah [01:04:16]:
That is so great. I really appreciate that you're making these resources available to people. So thank you so much for what you do in the world and for your time and this conversation. And for those of you who are listening, if you know someone who may be over controlling and may need a little help loosening up when it comes to dishwashers and other things, please send them this podcast. Share it with your friends, your family, people that you think might need to hear this information and, you know, like subscribe, leave a comment wherever you get your podcasts, and I look forward to the next conversation.
Dr. Tom Murray [01:05:05]:
Thank you for having me on your show.