Unpacking Sexual Freedom with Mandy Salley

In this episode of The Better Sex Podcast, I talk with Licensed Social Worker and Sexual Freedom Advocate, Mandy Salley of the Woodhall Freedom Foundation. In this conversation, we chat about some of the limitations of sexual freedom in the United States, touching on laws against activities like cunnilingus or interracial sex and how outdated these laws have become. We delve into the Comstock Act and its lingering effects on mailing erotic materials and contraception information. Along the way, Mandy shares insights into effective laws that protect sex workers, such as the "Stop Violence in the Sex Trades Act" in New York. Her passion for social justice and sexual freedom is evident as she encourages listeners to engage in open conversations and remain hopeful for change. And of course, Mandy invites us to connect with the Woodhull Freedom Foundation for resources and support in advocating for sexual rights in your area and community

Connect with Mandy

https://www.woodhullfoundation.org

https://www.instagram.com/woodhullfreedom/

https://www.instagram.com/_mandy.salley/

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All right. So welcome, everyone. Welcome to the Better Sex podcast. My name is Deborah Kat, and I am your shameless host. This is an adult podcast where we talk explicitly about sex, relationships, and all the good things that go with them, as well as a few the not so good things. This show is to help you figure out what works for you so that you can have better sex on your terms. I truly believe that a sexy world creates a happier and a safer world. If you want to do your part in creating a safe and sexy world, please hit like, subscribe and leave a comment wherever you get your podcasts.

Deborah [00:00:52]:

Today we are going to dive into the world of my guest, Mandy Sally. She has been a part of the Woodhill Freedom foundation since 2014, where she first served as the volunteer coordinator for the annual Sexual Freedom Summit. She's a licensed social worker and has experience in in person hospitals, geriatric day programs, and rape crisis. Mandy brings her passion for social justice, for social justice, and loving others to Woodhill as part of the chief operations officer. I am delighted to have you here as my guest. I have followed Woodhill foundation for quite some time, and so it is a pleasure and an honor to get to know you better, and I'd love to hear a little bit about your story. First, what is Woodhill Freedom foundation, and how did you get here?

Mandy [00:01:59]:

Yeah, well, thank you so much for having me. I'm really excited to be here. I love talking about my work at Woodhall, and who doesn't love talking about themselves? So I'm excited to be here. And I just want to say before I, like, dive in, I love that this is a shameless podcast. I just, you know, shame is such a strong force in our work at Woodhall. Of course, we're constantly fighting against. And so I love that I don't have to fight against that in this conversation. So thank you so much for that.

Mandy [00:02:33]:

So, the Woodhall Freedom foundation, we are a human rights organization, and we are all about sexual freedom and protecting and defending and affirming sexual freedom as a fundamental human right. One of the beautiful things, and I think we're going to talk about this probably later in our conversation, is that sexual freedom is very broad. It encompasses a lot of different things, which means that our work often looks very different. And I, you know, at Woodhall, we do essentially three main things. We educate folks. So we do all sorts of free education about sexual freedom issues and advocacy, whether that be virtually online or our former conference of sexual freedom summit. A ton of stuff on our social media pages. We also do research.

Mandy [00:03:24]:

So we have commissioned a study at John Jay University. The results will be coming out pretty soon about what happens to sex workers when they are deplatformed or lose their accounts online. So that's pretty exciting. We also, in our research sort of faction, have a program called fact check. And fact check is checking the facts around the myths you hear related to sexual freedom. So right now on our website, we have five different posts about five different myths related to pornography that we have gone through and fact checked. These are researched. We've got all the footnotes, and they're available for everybody to download totally for free or just to look at.

Mandy [00:04:06]:

I think they're really interesting. And the last part of our work, certainly not the least, is our advocacy. So we do a lot of legislative advocacy, whether that be testifying in various state legislators, legislatures, rather, or writing testimony, signing letters of support, working with other organizations, or doing all sorts of legislative advocacy, because we're trying to defend and protect those human rights. And in the US, the way we can do that is through legislative advocacy. So those are kind of the three main functions of Woodhull. But, of course, there's also lots we do day to day that aren't quite under those functions. So that's Woodhall. And you want us to know a little bit about me and how I got here, is that right?

Deborah [00:04:53]:

Absolutely. And first, I just have to say thank you to Woodhull for the work that you're doing is so important. And, I mean, there is some crap ass legislation on the books, and it is.

Mandy [00:05:13]:

Yeah, yeah, I know. I know it's rough out there. It's.

Deborah [00:05:21]:

So. It's rough out there. It's, you know, just so yucky. I mean, and that's it. That is definitely a practical term there. But anyway, so, again, thank you so much for the work that you do. Thank you to you, to Woodhull, to everyone who is working for sexual freedom. It is just such an important.

Deborah [00:05:52]:

Such important work. And so how did you get into this slide?

Mandy [00:05:58]:

Yeah, it's not like your average career trajectory, that is for sure. I mean, so for me, and I think this is true of a lot of folks sort of in the sexuality field, it started out with peer sex ed. When I was in college, I was a part of a peer sex ed program called Project Shape. And it was a really cool program because a mentor of mine, her name is doctor Carol Stanger, mentor and personal hero. She ran this program where she educated students about sexual health. And so I actually got to take a course to learn how to be a sexual health educator. So that was learning all about STI prevention and contraception, but also pleasure and fun and sex on campus. And we did things like host programs called STI Jeopardy, or handing out.

Mandy [00:06:51]:

I was like that girl on campus who handed out condoms in the dining hall. That was me. And I loved it. I just loved it. It's been my most favorite role to this date, having been out of college for a long time now. Still something I remember very fondly. And when I was there, I remember saying to Carol, I love this. Like, I want to do this forever, right? Like, how do I get to be.

Mandy [00:07:18]:

How do I make this my job? Really hard to be a sex educator out there and pay the bills? I'm sure I don't have to tell you that. Or a number of people listening. And so she told me about this program at Widener University. It was a dual program. It was a master's in social work and a master's of education and human sexuality. And the idea is that you would get your clinical training and social work, but you would also learn about sexuality, and you could graduate and be a sex therapist, sex educator, you know, whatever the case may be. And so that's what I did. I went to Widener, and I had, like, grand hopes of being the next big sex therapist.

Mandy [00:07:56]:

And, you know, the thing that happened to me there is I was invited to volunteer at the Sexual Freedom Summit, and the summit of that Woodhull hosted was all about the policy stuff, right, and creating change and affirming sexual freedom. And I was just, like. I just fell in love with it, right? Like, so much of being a social worker was about social justice and creating change and helping people. And here was an organization that was doing that, but from a sexuality perspective. And I was just like, oh, my gosh, I didn't think such an organization existed, right? Like, I didn't think this was real. And so I volunteered, and I would take on a little bit more every year at the summit, and eventually I was running the summit, and then I was at a place in my life where the position, a full time position at Woodhull opened. It was always a volunteer gig for me, and Ricky Levy, who was our president and CEO, was like, hey, I'm finally in a position to hire you. You know, do you want to come work for Woodhull? And here I am about two and a half years later, working for Woodhull, doing the stuff.

Mandy [00:09:08]:

But, yeah, I'm very much grounded in social justice and wanting to help people that social worker identity is very important to me in my role.

Deborah [00:09:18]:

Well, so when it comes to sexual freedom, like, you know, that's a big word. So how. How are you using it? What does that mean to you?

Mandy [00:09:31]:

Yeah. So my favorite thing to do when I'm at an event, repping Woodhall, like I'm at a cocktail party, you know, I'll say, our mission, just like I told you a few minutes ago, and people will ask me this question, they'll be like, well, what is sexual freedom? And I love to be like, oh, I don't know. What do you think sexual freedom is? Because I think the really exciting thing about sexual freedom is it means something different to everybody. And I'm here to say that Woodhull's mission is to protect sexual freedom for every single person and how it looks for them. I think where it starts is bodily autonomy. And what I mean by that is getting to make the choices about what you do with your body and who you do it with for yourself.

Deborah [00:10:15]:

So.

Mandy [00:10:16]:

So whether that be actual sex and choosing who to have sex with and how to have sex, or making decisions about your reproductive health, whether to have a child or not have a child, or how you identify. Right. Sexual orientation, gender identity, I think all of those things fall under sexual freedom. But I also think that things like sex worker rights are very much sexual freedom. Right? Like any sort of erotic labor is tied to sexual freedom because of the sexual part. So there are lots of things under there that I think are tied to sexual freedom. I think being able to talk about sex, being able to talk about sexuality on Instagram without being shadow banned is sexual freedom. So we work across a lot of different issues.

Mandy [00:11:09]:

And, yeah, as long as it's grounded in human rights, that's what kind of makes Woodhull different, is it's all about your right to exist as a human being, and as long as we can tie it to human rights in some way, we are advocating for it.

Deborah [00:11:26]:

So that makes me curious. Like, well, so is there something that you would say? This is not sexual freedom.

Mandy [00:11:35]:

Sexual assault is not sexual freedom. So I think consent violations, that does not fall under sexual freedom. So things, you know, everybody who's involved in whatever is happening needs to be an adult, and it needs to be agreeing to whatever is happening. And if you're in a situation where you're the being violated in some way, you don't have consent to what's happening, your choices are being disrespected. That, to me, does not fall under the sexual freedom umbrella, because sexual freedom is just as much about being able to say no and not participate in something as it is about being able to say yes and participate. So it's, you know, it goes both ways.

Deborah [00:12:26]:

Thank you. So, I'm kind of curious, like, coming back to the sexual education piece of things. Where do you see how. How are you seeing it play out in. In the states these days?

Mandy [00:12:42]:

It's rough. It's rough out there. I'll say that again. Yeah. So, one of the organizations that Woodhull works really closely with is called Ccuse. Stands for sexuality information education caucus of the United States. I want to say. Don't quote me on that acronym, but I had the privilege of participating in their advocacy sex ed on the Hill day in May of this year, and we actually got to talk to legislators about sex ed.

Mandy [00:13:13]:

I think most people. I don't know most people. Maybe you know, or maybe you don't know. In the United States, sex ed is decided at the state level. So every state has its own sex ed principles. And depending on what state you're in, depending on funding, kind of depends on whether or not sex ed is comprehensive or abstinence based or something else. So I'm going to go a little bit into history, and you can stop me because I can talk about this stuff forever. So you just tell me if this is too much.

Mandy [00:13:48]:

But under George Bush's administration, we passed the largest bill of funding for abstinence only education in the United States. And abstinence only education is exactly what it sounds like. It's teaching kids and students that the only way to avoid pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections is through abstinence. Now, obviously, we know that is nothing. True. Right? Of course. And so. But as a result of that, if states wanted funding for sex education, they had to adhere to an abstinence only curriculum.

Mandy [00:14:27]:

A lot of states are not in a place to be able to turn down federal funding for education. Just sort of the reality of the world, right, of the United States. And so what has happened? What happened is you had a entire generation of students that were only exposed to abstinence only education, and that's really dangerous, right? Because they're not getting information about contraceptive use, about condoms, about their bodies even. Because I think what other people don't realize is comprehensive sex education is not just about avoiding pregnancy. It's about consent. It's about talking about relationship styles. It's like, what feels good, what doesn't feel good. There's so much to comprehensive sex education beyond just talking about intercourse and not getting gonorrhea, for example.

Mandy [00:15:21]:

But that was just not happening. And so what has happened since then is there's been a lot of states that have been able to get funding in different ways or have changed their standards. And so I think right now, don't quote me on this number, but it's like less than 15 states have mandated comprehensive sex education, and there's still something like 31 that are only teaching abstinence only at sex ed. And that's a problem. I think if, you know, if we were really educating our youth effectively about sex and sexuality, we would be able to avoid a lot of problems that come up later in life. But that's sort of where I see the intersection of sexual freedom and sex ed in my history.

Deborah [00:16:04]:

So I have a quick question for you, and I don't know if this is accurate or not, so maybe it'll end up as a fact check question, but I think there's something running around. It might be a meme or something or running around on the Internet that says something like, there's no standard that sex education has to be accurate.

Mandy [00:16:26]:

Mm hmm. I think that that's probably not an inaccurate statement because abstinence only, by its, I mean, on its face, is kind of inaccurate. Right. I mean, yes. Can you prevent sexually transmitted infections? Can you prevent pregnancy from abstinence? Yes. Can you also prevent those things by using a condom? Yes. But when you're only teaching that you can prevent it one way, that is inaccurate, that's bad information. It's not giving anybody the whole picture.

Mandy [00:17:06]:

So I think that that statement is probably correct. And I would encourage folks who are interested in learning about this, particularly in what's happening in your own state. They go to Cecus website again, that's siecus.org, because they have state profiles for every single state and what sort of funding they're getting, what they're not getting. I will say that one of the things we were pushing for when we went for Advocacy Day was for additional funding for the teen pregnancy Prevention program and for Dash, which is the Department of Adolescent Sexual Health, which is who administers a lot of these programs. So we were pushing for additional federal funding for both of those things. And a lot of the legislators I spoke with were open to it, but it's funding that hasn't been increased in a while, so we'll see what happens.

Deborah [00:18:00]:

Yeah. And trying to get things. So my background is actually in legal studies. My intention was to go on to be a lawyer, and I did time on the hill for quite some time. And so one of the things that I know about trying to get legislation passed is even if a representative or senator feels like it's a good idea, like, getting it from their desk to the floor and beyond is just so tricky. And I think it's gotten even harder in the last few years, the more contentious things have become. So I just really appreciate the work that you're doing there. It's tough.

Deborah [00:18:50]:

It's really. But, you know, one of the things I'm really curious, like, what are some of the arguments that people come up with as to why. Why is it that you wouldn't want to have this information out there? Like what? You know, I mean, I know there's the cliche knowledge of danger, but, you know.

Mandy [00:19:12]:

Yeah, well, I think there's a couple things going on. I mean, one, I think that the Christian right, you know, has. Is really powerful and very influential and has very specific ideas about what is, what makes up a family and what is appropriate and what's not appropriate. And they have been really effective in lobbying Congress through their various organizations that have titles like focus on the family and things like that. And they've been really, really good about making sex ed sound salacious and sound explicit and pornographic when it isn't. And so I think you've got that happening. You've got this really powerful force on one side that is pushing very hard against any topic that is not abstinence only. But then you've got, for your average Joe, who maybe is not engaged with those groups, I think there's a lot of misunderstanding about what happens in sex ed and what it means to have truly age appropriate sex education.

Mandy [00:20:25]:

I don't know if you're familiar with the Unitarian Universalist church, but they're a non denominational church, and they have a sex ed program called our whole lives, owl for short. And their curriculum goes from very, very young all the way to geriatrics, and they have different modules for every single age group about what's appropriate related to that particular population's life stage and what they're going through. And so good sex educators are not in a kindergarten classroom talking about, like, how to have anal sex. Right. They are talking about good touch, bad touch. Right. Which is important to be telling kids. Right.

Mandy [00:21:10]:

They're talking about boundaries and, you know, how to communicate sometimes. And then, you know, you're not really talking about things like contraceptive contraception and intercourse and all of that until high school. I think there's also sort of a third idea at play here, that if you talk to youth about sex, they're going to have it. And I.

Deborah [00:21:33]:

As opposed to not going to. Not talking about sex.

Mandy [00:21:36]:

Right.

Deborah [00:21:37]:

They're going to have it.

Mandy [00:21:38]:

Right. I hate to burst anybody's bubble, but I think the youth, you know, and I'm talking about, like, high school now and later. I'm not talking about little kids here. They're probably going to have sex. I just, I hate to break it to you. And so talking about it doesn't mean it's necessarily going to happen sooner or later or even at all. But, you know, if you don't talk about it at all, you don't give people the information, they're never going to be able to protect themselves.

Deborah [00:22:10]:

Right, right. Well, and I think one of the interesting things is it's like, you know, some of the groups that are show like, oh, no, you can't do it in the schools. Leave it up to the parents or leave it up to the family. I mean, not all parents are equipped to talk to their kids about sex. And it's unfortunate. I still hear, like, I still have clients who come to me all the time who are like, yeah, we, you know, there is a book left on my bed which for some is actually better than, you know, than others. And, or people are getting information online which can be amazing and can not be amazing. And, you know, one of the big complaints that I hear about porn is that porn is now sex education.

Deborah [00:23:08]:

And I'm curious, you know, you were saying that your organization is starting to look at some, you know, what's true and what's not true there. And so is, I'm curious if that was one of the things that, one of the topics that was covered under the, under the research.

Mandy [00:23:25]:

Yeah. It wasn't explicitly one of the things we talked about, but I hear that all the time, too, right. Is like kids are going to Google and just trying to look up whatever. And whatever they get is whatever they get. Right? So one of the things that, one of the myths that we covered was our minors accessing porn at unprecedented levels. Because that's the thing we hear, too now, because there's a big push for legislation around age verification online and pushing people to put in their actually government issued ids on a website before they can access porn. And so we wanted.

Deborah [00:24:04]:

Sounds like a terrible idea. I know that just sounds, I mean, you know, I'm one of these people who, it's like, you know, if they start asking for verification here, you know.

Mandy [00:24:24]:

Yeah, yeah. Well, and, you know, I don't know if you've seen it. But maybe a month ago or so recently, Netflix put out a documentary about Ashley Madison, which was the website that was, like, advertised for cheaters. And Ashley Madison was subject to a massive data breach and was hacked. And all these people who were using it, all their information was out in the world. And so my thing is, one, I don't think that any information we put online we can trust to remain private. And two, I don't want a government body to be able to see what my porn preferences are. That's my private information.

Mandy [00:25:08]:

And I think there's so much shame around sexuality in this country. And I think a lot of people are, you know, are worried about their data, but are less inclined to put that information in because they don't want anybody to find out that they might even watch porn, period, and let alone what kind of porn they're into. So I think it's just a massive privacy violation. And, you know, a lot of the arguments we hear about it are, well, you've got to flash your id when you go to the liquor store, when you buy cigarettes or whatever. And it's like, yes, but I'm showing my id to the cashier, and then I'm leaving. I'm not putting my id, you know, my birth date and my legal name into a database so that I can buy beer. Right. It's a different sort of thing.

Mandy [00:25:57]:

So, yeah, we have a lot of concerns about it. It's been a very big part of my work at Woodhull over the past. I would say, like, six to eight months, because I think something like 20 states introduced bills this year trying to verify, you know, your. Your online porn access. I will tell you that right now, Pornhub has responded by actually blocking access to their site in seven states where this is on the books. So if you live. And I'm not going to remember all of them off the top of my head, but I know, like, Louisiana, Virginia, Texas, if you try to go, oh.

Deborah [00:26:36]:

My God, those are the places who most need the Pornhub. Like, come on.

Mandy [00:26:41]:

Right? So, yeah. And what's happening, basically, is that people are using a VPN and they're sitting in Texas, but their computer thinks they're in New York or whatever, or they're just going to go to a site that is not based in the US, that doesn't have any sort of moderation, and they're just going to get their porn that way. Right? They're just going to go to these, like, illegal sites, not us based sites, and then, you know, there's sort of some ethical concerns with all of that. So it's not effective policy for a number of reasons.

Deborah [00:27:14]:

Right, right. Well, and, you know, I heard one of your interviews with. I can't remember who the women were, but they were talking about porn, and they were talking about the ethics of porn, and they were talking about, you know, the idea that if there is going to be legislation, their suggestion was that the legislation be more on the making sure that there are ethical workplaces, that the performers, the people who are showing up on screen, are fully in consent and are fully vetted of age and of sound mind. I was just really struck by that and by, you know, like, if we want smart legislation, you know, what. What are the things that we want to legislate for? And, you know, one of the things that I feel like one of the places where legislation goes that, you know, is it doesn't need to be in our bedrooms.

Mandy [00:28:26]:

I would agree.

Deborah [00:28:28]:

And I find it so fascinating that we have all of these conversations about freedom. And the way that we talk about freedom is not very free, honestly. Anyway, I did want to get your take on. And what are some of the more ridiculous laws that are on the books? I mean, I remember. I think it may or may not still be on the books, but finding out that, like, cunnilingus was illegal in a few states and that interracial sex was still illegal in a few states, and. Yeah, so I'm curious.

Mandy [00:29:21]:

Yeah. We do this thing in America where we never take bad laws off the books, which is very frustrating. So I'm going to start with a piece of legislation that's from, like, the 1870s, called the Comstock Act. Comstock act. Folks may be familiar with this. It's named after Anthony Comstock. He was the postmaster general during his time. And the Comstock act made it illegal to mail obscene materials.

Mandy [00:29:52]:

And the way that they defined obscene materials were materials that are erotic, like porn or erotic or whatever, but also information about contraception, information about abortion, you know, generally women's health information. All of that was considered obscene by the Comstock act. There are parts of the Comstock act that remain on the books today, and it was cited in a Supreme Court decision out of Texas. Not Supreme Court in DC, but the Texas Supreme Court decision not too long ago. So I'm going to start right there with the Compsoc act. And the genius of the Commstock act is it is not a First Amendment violation because it doesn't outlaw the material. It outlaws sending the material. So it was very tricky right.

Mandy [00:30:44]:

Because it was like, you could produce all of this, but if you couldn't get it to people, how would. You're essentially restricting the information. Right. You're not actually taking away their free speech rights. They can write everything they want. They can, you know, reduce whatever they want. But if you can't get it to anybody, I mean, what good is it, right? Not that it's not valuable, but if people can't access the information, that's a problem. So I'm going to start with the Comstock act.

Mandy [00:31:10]:

But just two years ago, I believe it was, Maryland still had a law on the books that made oral sex illegal. And the statute read it was, people can go on our website and look at the testimony we submitted because it was really fun to write. It's really fun to write about blowjobs when you're submitting legislative testimony. I have to say that is one of the perks of my job, you know, side note for anybody looking for a career change. But, yeah, it was illegal to give oral sex, and the statute was written in such a way that it was, like, illegal to. And I'm paraphrasing here, but it was, like, illegal to put the member of somebody in an orifice. And it was also related to having sex with animals. Like, it was the same statute.

Mandy [00:32:05]:

Very weird. And people say things like, oh, well, you can't. You know, things like that don't get enforced anymore. Those are bad law. You know, those are old laws, whatever the case may be. But I think it was in 2020, there were people who were arrested in Maryland for having sex in the back of a bookstore, and it was this law that was cited. And of course, these folks were, I think they were gay and they were having gay sex. And that contributes, you know, homophobia contributes to all of this.

Mandy [00:32:34]:

So we really need to do a much better job in the US at repealing old laws. We saw this, of course, when the US Supreme Court issued the decision on Dobbs, which overturned Roe v. Wade. There were all sorts of trigger laws in states that had been on the books since 18, whatever, that all of a sudden were valid again because you didn't have Roe v. Wade protecting abortion access. So there's a lot of examples of old laws out there that I think are really quite terrible. And, yeah, maybe you don't hear about them enforced every day, but they're there. And when they need to be used, your law enforcers find a way to use them.

Deborah [00:33:15]:

Right, right. Thank you. Do you have an example of a well written law that actually protects sexual freedom.

Mandy [00:33:28]:

Yes, I do. So rare that that happens. But I mentioned sex work at the top of our conversation. And in New York, which is my home state, there's a piece of legislation that's been introduced called the stop violence and the Sex Trades act, and it would decriminalize sex work in New York state, so it would make prostitution not a crime, and it would protect both the sex worker and the client of the sex worker. So, unfortunately, did not pass this year in New York state. But I'm encouraged. You know, I went to Albany to lobby for the bill, and it was amazing. There was a massive crowd of us, and there were people chanting, sex work is work in the middle of the Capitol building.

Mandy [00:34:19]:

And I. It was, like, really such an incredibly powerful experience. So that's one bill that I'm really encouraged by. But there's another set of bills that are called immunity bills, and they protect folks from prosecution if they witness a crime or are victim of a crime in the course of sex work. So they won't be arrested for prostitution if, for example, they're assaulted by a client, and they report that to the police. And those bills have been passing. I think they've passed in, like, nine states. New York is considering one, Rhode Island's considering one, and I think Vermont passed one.

Mandy [00:35:04]:

So those. I'm encouraged by those bills, and I'm also encouraged by any bill out there that protects the rights of transgender folks and women's reproductive care. So those have been happening in a number of different states. Can't think of them off the top of my head, but any of those sort of protection bills, I think, are really great. Just this week, Florida. A Florida judge issued a decision that their ban on transgender health care was unconstitutional and unenforceable. So that was great news. So there's some good stuff happening.

Mandy [00:35:42]:

It's just not as reported on, I think, or as widely known about as some of the bad stuff, because we get scared. Right. And we want to protect ourselves, and so we work really hard to oppose the bad stuff and sometimes forget about the good stuff.

Deborah [00:36:00]:

So, hearing you say that, I'm really curious, like, what. What do you find rewarding about? Like, where's the reward and the payoff for the work that you do?

Mandy [00:36:12]:

That's a really good question. Nobody's ever asked me that before. I get a lot of satisfaction from being able to talk to people in organizations about sexual freedom who have never considered it before. It's a privilege to be able to talk about sex and sexuality freely. And I 100% recognize that. And so a lot of the validation I get from my work is being able to talk to people and not necessarily change their mind about something, but just sort of make them think or see something in a different light. You know, I was at a reception for a big libertarian organization recently.

Deborah [00:37:00]:

Yeah, that must have been fun.

Mandy [00:37:03]:

It's interesting. It is interesting. Let me tell you. You've got to have an open mind. I would rather talk about every kind of kinky sex than talk about financial policy with the libertarians ever again. But no, I joke. But I actually, you know, it's sort of funny. Like, you walk into these spaces, right? And you say, hey, I'm here to talk about sexual freedom.

Mandy [00:37:29]:

And everybody sort of gets, like, titillated, right? They're like, oh, we're going to talk about sex. And, you know, this is going to be, like, erotic and exciting for me. And when I say to them things like, you know, your sexual freedom is violated by any run of the mill policy, they're sort of like, oh, I never thought about that. Or when I start to talk to them about sex work, they're like, oh, I never thought about that that way. You know? So for me, that's where I get the validation is the, like, getting to have really interesting conversations with people. And I also recognize that I may be somebody who I'm going to be the only person this person talks to and feels, like, safe enough to ask a question about sexuality. I think that's really rare in the US. And so I really appreciate being able to provide that kind of, like, safety and, like, place for people to be curious.

Mandy [00:38:26]:

Yeah, I love a good conversation. I really like, it's the best part of my job.

Deborah [00:38:32]:

So you mentioned the libertarians. I'm kind of curious, like, what was the sort of oddest place that you've gone to have some of these conversations?

Mandy [00:38:46]:

Some of these conversations? Oh, that's a really good question. Well, that particular reception was at the Harvard Club in New York City. And I definitely felt odd. It was really strange because I was like one of a few women there and one of a few people probably who are under 40 or 50 years old, even older than that. And it was really, you know, everybody was like in a suit and very kind of buttoned up. And so that was, I was like, oh, this is very different. You know, like, normally when I go to these, like, porn events or like, adult industry events, it's a little bit like, more casual. People are having a good time.

Mandy [00:39:32]:

So that was, that was really different for me. But I will say, actually, I had an experience. There's an organization we work with sometimes called Braver Angels, and their whole mission is about ending depolarization in America. And they host all these events about bringing people from all sides of the aisle together. And they had a debate last year here in New York City, and they asked Woodhall, the co sponsor, and they asked me to speak. And the topic of the debate is whether or not we should smash patriarchy. And, of course, I was there to say, yes, I think we should smash patriarchy. Excuse me.

Mandy [00:40:14]:

And I got up there and I said my piece, and I was like, oh, this is so fun. And I had this whole antidote about the Barbie movie, and I thought, oh, people are going to love this. And there was a person in the crowd, because you say your piece and it is like a traditional debate. So then there's time for questions and rebuttal. And this person got up to ask me a question, and they looked. I could see them walking to the microphone across the room, right? And they just looked angry, like they had, like, some pep in their step. And I thought, oh, this is not going to go well for me. And they got to the microphone, and they asked me to explain the biological differences between men and women.

Mandy [00:40:56]:

And women are wired to do one thing and men are wired to another thing. And why would I ever suggest that anything should be different? And the thing that was weird for me, or the thing that was uncomfortable is they were so angry. Like, they were angry at me for suggesting that things could be different. And I was just so struck by that because I thought, I'm here because I've often felt really angry that as a woman, I don't have the same rights as men. Right. Or I'm treated differently. So I was just so struck by this person who was so angry sort of in the opposite direction, you know? And I think this person was a woman. They looked like that.

Mandy [00:41:42]:

I don't want to assume anybody's gender, but that was my experience. And it's the first kind of time I've dealt with that sort of, you know, off outside of the Internet because there's all sorts of trolls online. But, like, real in person, this level of anger about what I was suggesting.

Deborah [00:42:03]:

Yeah, it totally makes me curious what your response to that was.

Mandy [00:42:10]:

Well, my response in those moments is always kind of humor, because, you know, what I realized is I'm not going to change this person's mind. Right. This person obviously feels very strongly about this thing, and honestly not my goal. I don't want to change your whole worldview. That's not what I want to do. And so my response was kind of a joke, and I was like, well, I'm not a scientist. And that did not go over well. They were not happy with that response.

Mandy [00:42:42]:

But I just sort of said, I can't explain to you the biological differences between men and women. It's not what I do. And also, I don't think that actually matters to what I'm trying to say. You know, what I'm trying to say is that even if there are biological differences between men or women, which is not what I'm suggesting here, but even if that was my argument, the reason I think we should smash the patriarchy is because I think everybody should be equal regardless of what their biological gender, sex is. That's what I'm trying to say. So to me, even if I could explain the difference to you, my point is it shouldn't matter. That was kind of what I was trying to get across the audience, which, you know, I don't know, maybe I wasn't very effective given, you know, their question. But that's kind of what I tried to do.

Deborah [00:43:34]:

Yeah. So I. Well, I love hearing that because it sort of opens things up a little bit in terms of just hearing you say, you know, when somebody comes with that kind of closed mind, how do we have these conversations? Because they are tricky. And the more we stay in our own bubbles and have our echo chambers, the more polarized we become, which does not go well for any kind of freedom, whether it's financial freedom or sexual freedom or. I mean, there are just some crazy laws that are going out on the books these days about what we can talk about, what we can't talk about, what we can call truth, what we can't call truth. And so I think this, one of the reasons I'm so excited to have you here is to really underscore the importance of so having an eye on our legislation and understanding the implications. Like you were saying about that law in Maryland. You know, it was on the books since time immemorial, and, you know, a couple of years ago, it was pulled out, the Comstock law.

Deborah [00:45:05]:

You know, thank you for bringing that up. It's just, you know, that is something that is broad enough that can really undermine some of the work that we've done. So what would you say, of all the things that are running around, what would you say is the thing to keep an eye out for?

Mandy [00:45:32]:

Yeah, I mean, there's lots of things, and I want to caution and say that I don't want to overwhelm anybody, you know, I don't want anybody to listen to this conversation and be feeling like, oh, my gosh, the world is on fire. I'm not going to have any sexual freedom rights anymore. And everything is bad. Like, I hope that, that, I don't think that that's how people will walk away from this conversation. But that's by no means what I'm suggesting. What my advice to people is always to look close to home. You know, the way that we can have the most impact is by getting involved in our communities. And so I always tell people, if you're passionate about an issue, find somebody who's working on that issue in your community, you know, whether that be in your school district or your local government, your city, whatever the case may be.

Mandy [00:46:27]:

Like, we can have so much, much bigger impact in our small townships than we can have at the federal level. And you can feel it more when it's happening in your community. And so I would tell people to read your local newspaper, you know, read the PTA bulletin from your local school district, even if you don't have children, just to see what's going on. Join your town's Facebook page. You know, those conversations on those Facebook groups are often quite interesting. And I'm not suggesting anybody go become a keyboard warrior, but if you want to just find out what's happening, that's the way to find out what's happening. And then reach out to an organization and say, how can I help? Because I'm going to tell you, there is not a nonprofit on this planet that does not need help or support in some way, shape or form. And everybody has a skill.

Mandy [00:47:24]:

And so if you're like an accountant and you're a wizard, spreadsheets, offer that to your local sex worker rights group or, you know, whatever. This is an example, right? You know, if you're somebody who's really great on social media and you love making TikToks, that's really super helpful to a lot of organizations who don't have the time or energy to do things like that. So that's always my suggest suggestion is just look close to home. Or if it's not a policy thing you want to be involved in, have a conversation with your neighbor. You know, I think that we, you know, post pandemic, we're not always great at, like, interacting with the people closest to us and just treating people like humans. And you'll learn a lot if you just start to talk to the people who live next door. I hope that wasn't, like, two flip of advice.

Deborah [00:48:21]:

So, no, that's actually really incredibly helpful. I was going to ask you, what is it that you want people to take away from this conversation? And I think that's. So do you have anything to add in terms of what you would like people to take away from this conversation?

Mandy [00:48:42]:

I think everybody has a part to play in this, and I think even though things feel a little bleak right now, there's something we can all do, and that's really, really helpful. There's a Margaret Mead quote. I think that it's something like, don't doubt that a small group of committed citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has. You know, a small group of people can really do a lot. And so that's, you know, I just want people to feel hopeful and believe that things can change, because if you don't believe that things can change, they're not going to change. If I didn't believe that I could protect sexual freedom at Woodhall, I wouldn't be here. So I think that's what I want to leave people with.

Mandy [00:49:31]:

And I also want to say that we're a resource. So if there's something happening in your community related to sexual freedom or you have questions or whatever the case may be, you know, we're here for you. Our. Our email, or. My email is Mandy. Mandy@woodhallfoundation.org. and my inbox is open, so I would encourage folks to reach out to us. We also have a legislative support request form on our website, so if there's piece of legislation you're supporting or opposing and you'd like us to write a letter of support or submit testimony or whatever, please fill out that form on our website so that we can consider it.

Mandy [00:50:14]:

Yeah, we're here. We're here and we want to help. So reach out and follow us on social media at Woodhall Freedom on all channels.

Deborah [00:50:22]:

Beautiful. Thank you so much. So, again, for those of you listening, my guest is Mandy Sully, and she is the COO at the Woodhull Freedom foundation. And what an extraordinary conversation. Thank you so much for your time. I super appreciate it. And again, please, they're on Instagram. Are you Facebook?

Mandy [00:50:56]:

We're on Instagram, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Twitter. Please follow us. And thank you so much for having me. I love being able to talk about this stuff, even if it's not directly related to what I did today at Woodhull. I love these conversations, and it's so refreshing to be in this shameless, sex positive, lovely virtual space with you. I so appreciate the opportunity.

Deborah [00:51:23]:

Thank you so much. And, yeah, starting conversations with your neighbors, I think I really want to underscore that. And on that note, if you want to have more conversations or if you feel like this conversation can help somebody that you know, please share it and, like, subscribe comment. Let me know what you want to know more about. I'm always available to support more knowledge in the world about sexuality, and you can reach me@deboracat.com and all of this will be in the show notes. Again, Mandy, thank you so very much for your time. It's been an amazing conversation.