Unpacking Jealousy & Pleasure with Ken Blackman
In this episode of The Better Sex Podcast, I talk with international Sex and Intimacy Educator and Relationship Coach, Ken Blackman. In this conversation, we dive deep into the nuance of jealousy and how it appears in relationships, exploring the different types of jealousy that can uniquely affect intimate connections. We also touch upon the transformative power of identifying different relationship motivations and how understanding these can shift things from transactional interactions to passionate partnerships.
Along the way, Ken shares his inspiring story from being an Apple software engineer to his current mission of helping couples co-create thriving and fulfilling relationships. Ken gives us some valuable insights and practical tools to enhance sexual satisfaction through somatic pleasure and bridge the ‘orgasm gap’ – the disparity in orgasm between partners.
Listen to this powerful episode and learn how to identify your own jealousy patterns to foster a more relaxed, fulfilling approach to intimacy.
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Website - https://kenblackman.com
Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/KenBlackmanPersonal
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In our commitment accessibility, help make this podcast more accessible to those who are hearing impaired or those who like to read rather than listen to podcasts. The transcription is far from perfect, and in some cases quite amusing. As we grow edited transcripts are on the list in the meantime please enjoy.
Deborah [00:00:00]:
Chords. And is there anything else I should know about or you wanted to say before we jumped in?
Ken Blackman [00:00:09]:
Nope. Let's jump right in.
Deborah [00:00:11]:
All right, let's do it.
Ken Blackman [00:00:13]:
I want to make sure I have my. Since we're talking about jealousy, I want to make sure I have my actual document kind of accessible so we can refer to it.
Deborah [00:00:26]:
Sounds great. All right. Welcome to the Better Sex podcast. My name is Deborah Kat and I am your shameless host. This is the show where we have unfiltered conversations about sex and relationships. Our goal is to support you in discovering the many ways to experience sex and relationship so you can figure out what works for you. I truly believe that a sexy world creates a happier and a safer world. If you want to do your part in creating a safe and sexy world, please hit like, subscribe and leave a comment.
Deborah [00:01:11]:
Today we're going to dive into the world of my guest, Ken Blackman. A former Apple software engineer turned international sex and intimacy educator and a relationship coach, Ken is in his 20th year helping couples co create thriving, fulfilling life partnership and exquisite love lives. His work has been mentioned in Business Insider, Playboy, Tim Ferriss's four hour series, and elsewhere. He's a regular featured contributor to the Good Man Project, Better Humans and Sexographity Sex. Anyway, so welcome Ken. I am so excited to have you here. Ken has. I know Ken from many different places, but he has been a guest on my Better Sex podcast.
Deborah [00:02:10]:
And part of the reason that I invited him to be on the podcast was I was so impressed by his. His work around jealousy and his ebook around jealousy. And so we're going to dive into, we're going to start with jealousy and who knows where we'll end up. So welcome Ken. I'm so happy to have you here.
Ken Blackman [00:02:34]:
Good to be here. I always love our conversations end up being so, so rich and varied.
Deborah [00:02:40]:
Thank you. So let's. So tell me about jealousy. What, when, when you start thinking about it, where, where do you go?
Ken Blackman [00:02:52]:
Yeah, it's interesting when someone says, when someone says they're jealous or their partner is jealous or they're struggling with jealousy. My first question to internally as well, what kind of jealousy is it? Because that turns out to be kind of an umbrella term for a bunch of really complex and nuanced feelings that have different causes. And because they have different causes, they have different, like, ways to be resolved. So just to kind of give you the, the overview, there's, there's envious jealousy, there's insecure jealousy, and there's possessive jealousy. And each one has different causes. Each one has different solutions. And, you know, there's a, There's a whole world to be discovered there.
Deborah [00:03:38]:
And can you talk a little bit more about each of those different kinds of jealousy?
Ken Blackman [00:03:43]:
Yeah. Yeah. So envious jealousy, first of all, it tends to come up when there's already problems in the relationship or you don't quite feel like you're getting what you want already. Like, there's. There, like you're already feeling like, oh, you know, I, I'm already not getting what I want in this relationship or not enough of it. And so you're going to be super triggered whenever your partner goes. Goes out and has fun with outside the relationship. Do you know what I mean? Like, like, you start to get like.
Ken Blackman [00:04:18]:
And not only envious of them, but envious of, like, first of all, they're having fun that I want to be having or someone else is getting their attention that I wish I was getting. You know, there's are. There's already this issue that's being exacerbated by the fact that your partner is out a, having fun and B, having fun or giving, Giving their own attention to someone else.
Deborah [00:04:42]:
Yeah, I, I think of that, like, for myself, when I don't feel full, when my cup doesn't feel full, when, as you said, you know, his attention is going elsewhere. And it doesn't have to be. It absolutely doesn't have to be to another person. It can be that, you know, he's spending more time, as ridiculous as it sounds, with the cats. Like, yeah, the cats get to call, to crawl up into his lap and get petted and loved on. And I'm like, I want that att.
Ken Blackman [00:05:14]:
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And there's a, There's a kind of a subset or a particular case of this, which is when the partner is saying, no, I don't want to do that with you, and no, I don't want you to do that with anyone else either. And so, for example, like in the bedroom, for example, like, like, like, they're, they're not, they're not. There's problems in the bedroom or they're not having sex in the bedroom because one of them is angry and kind of has it on lockdown. And I certainly don't want you going out and doing that with anybody else either. Right. And so there's a difference between something you genuinely don't enjoy and you don't like doing it, and you kind of don't care whether your partner does it with someone else. Like, you know, if my, if my Wife has.
Ken Blackman [00:06:02]:
Has friends, and they like to, I don't know, like, Ana doesn't really do vision boards, but that's the example I always use. You know, they like to create vision boards. I don't really like to create vision boards, but I don't care if she does that with someone else. Like, it doesn't matter. But when you have it on lockdown, like something you could be doing that is fun and enjoyable and you're holding out on your partner or like you're you. You're trying to somehow punish them because they're not giving you the thing that you want. And so both of you are suffering, you know, and so often what happens is you get jealous of the thing that you are holding out on them and on yourself, too. And so, you know, the thing, the thing to do in this situation when there's envious jealousy, always, always the thing that needs to happen is how can we have our relationship get better? Because if I'm happy, if I'm fulfilled, if I'm getting everything I want, like, our relationship is great.
Ken Blackman [00:07:01]:
I have no, nothing, no unmet needs. You know, like, it's fantastic. I'm not going to be jealous about what my partner is doing elsewhere. Do you know what I mean? Like, that. That helps me be less jealous. And so that. That is kind of where the attention needs to be when it's envious. Jealousy is.
Ken Blackman [00:07:20]:
What can we do to make this relationship better? What. What's missing? How can we make it better?
Deborah [00:07:27]:
Yeah, that makes perfect sense. You know, again, when. When I'm getting. When I'm feeling full, and when my partner's feeling full, then. Then there's a feeling of generosity. There's a feeling of like, oh, yeah, of course. You know, go. Go have fun and come back and.
Deborah [00:07:45]:
And play with me. Because my, My story is when you go off and have fun, you're going to come back and you're going to be more fun, and so there's going to be more available, you know, within the relationship.
Ken Blackman [00:07:58]:
Yeah. And that reminds me, like, I want to say this isn't a case where your partner, like, we're not talking about where your partner goes out and has an affair. Like you, you thought you were monogamous. Your partner goes out and has an affair, doesn't tell you about it. You find, you know, clues. You confront them with it, they deny it. Then you finally confront them with evidence that they can't deny, and finally they admit it. Right.
Ken Blackman [00:08:25]:
That is an issue in the relationship. We are not talking about jealousy. That is not a case where we're talking about oh you're just, no, this isn't an issue of jealousy. This is like major issues problems. And like that's like infidelity and lying and breach of contract or going against disagreement agreements that you have or withholding from your partner. That's a whole different class of thing than what we're talking about right today when we're talking about jealousy. I just want to make that clear to your audience.
Deborah [00:08:56]:
Oh no, I really appreciate that because yes, we are talking about two different things. And you know, I think oftentimes when we talk about relational jealousy people think oh it's, you know, it's non monogamous jealousy that we're talking about and that's not accurate. Like you can be jealous within a monogamous relationship and it doesn't even have to be about another person. It just be that your partner, or I should say in my case my partner is his attention. Like I don't feel like I've had enough of his attention and he's putting it elsewhere. And so that there needs to be a conversation of like hey babe, I really want to spend more time with you and you know, I want you to do these other things because I know that they, they fill you up and that they're, they're, they're ultimately good for you, which is good for us. And I really feel like I need more time and attention right now. And you know, in relationships like we, we go through periods where we want or need more of our, our partners attention.
Deborah [00:10:06]:
Whether it's, you know, seasonal or whether it's like there's something happening. So yeah.
Ken Blackman [00:10:14]:
Which brings us to the second type of jealousy which is insecure jealousy. Now insecure jealousy really has to do with how you feel about yourself. And maybe you have issues of self esteem or self worth, but in any case what your partner is doing causes you to have panic or fear or anxiety around like fear of abandonment if they go to have this fun, our relationship is threatened. And there our relationship is threatened because I don't think I'm valuable. Like they're like, I'm convinced they're going to leave me anytime soon. That is a, that is a self esteem issue. And so like the flip side of that, which is kind of what this is going to tie into what you were just saying, like if you have healthy self esteem and you know what your value is, you know what your worth is, you know, you know, you don't, you know, you're not struggling with that, then it Becomes much easier to say what you said, which is I actually want you to go out and have fun. Like that is not a threat to me, that is not threatening to me.
Ken Blackman [00:11:21]:
I, you, you go have fun because you're going to come back, you're going to be happy, you're going to be in great shape. You know, like we, I will be the beneficiary of, of you being in good shape. So that is a, that is a high self esteem stance to have that level of. I imagine your, your audience is familiar with the, the term conversion.
Deborah [00:11:45]:
Well, let's, let's define it just in case.
Ken Blackman [00:11:48]:
Okay. So, so conversion is you, your partner's happiness makes you happy and your part, you know, like that, that is true in general. Like when you're, when your partner gets, gets a success at work and they come home and they're thrilled and you're thrilled for them, you know, or something good happens to them and they're happy and you're happy that they're happy. That's kind of the general idea of conversion. But there are certain areas where that conversion gets compromised and you end up feeling scared or threatened. So if your partner ha, you know, has a good time with someone else and you worry whether you're actually like I'm not sure what my value is here or you know, then, so now we're talking about insecure jealousy, right? Insecure jealousy. And so the, the cure here is actually to look inward and know what your value is. And oftentimes people like your, your, you, you, your partner is telling you how valuable you are, but you're not letting it sink in or really, really owning it or they're telling you how valuable you are and you, you rely on them to kind of subsidize or build up your, your own self esteem because you don't own it yourself.
Ken Blackman [00:13:14]:
And so this is really a case where the thing to the, the place to turn your attention is what is it going to take for you to actually have high self worth? So you can say, you can look in the mirror and say no, I'm valuable as a partner. I like I, I, I, I'm the, you know, like my partner can I, I'm glad my partner has chosen me there. I'm not worried that they're gonna go and find someone else that's better than me because I, you know, I feel, I feel good about myself. That's actually where the attention needs to be. Right. And there is a particular kind of thing that can happen with insecure jealousy where, so here's here. So there's me is my partner, and then this third party that I think is. I look at them and I think they're amazing.
Ken Blackman [00:14:00]:
So. Right. Like, I look at them and I'm envious of what I see over there. Maybe there's things that they're good at that I'm not good at or I think they're particularly good. Look, whatever. The thing is that I'm. I'm envious of third party. Then that brings up my insecurity.
Ken Blackman [00:14:18]:
Then I look at my partner and I project onto them that they are interested in this third person. So, for example, you know, if you go back to the 1950s and the. The. The husband works at a. At a. At an office, and he's got a really cute secretary, right? And so the wife sees the secretary and starts preemptively accusing him of something, but really it's what she's feeling about this, about herself and about the secretary. So.
Deborah [00:14:48]:
Sorry, there's a. There's a comparison there, and I. I'm comparing myself to this other person. I am. I am deciding that they are of higher value than I am. And my jealousy is. Really doesn't have anything to do with the behavior of my partner at this point. Although, kind of, you know, that kind of.
Ken Blackman [00:15:14]:
The point is that I don't have the clarity. I'm. I'm projecting all these feelings onto them. Right. So I. I would choose them over me. I. I am sure you are behind my back, choosing them over me.
Ken Blackman [00:15:29]:
That kind of thing.
Deborah [00:15:31]:
Yeah.
Ken Blackman [00:15:33]:
So in insecure jealousy. Right. So. So let me back up a little bit. So one way that you know that you have envious jealousy is that you're angry. Your partner go. Your partner goes out and has fun, and you get angry. You're rageful.
Ken Blackman [00:15:46]:
Something is being taken away from you, your rights are being trampled. Something you're. Something you're entitled to is being taken away from you. Or you're. They're. They're squandering outside the relationship and you're getting short change. So anger, right. With insecure jealousy, you know, it's insecure jealousy if you have fear, anxiety, panic, fear of abandonment, those kinds of feelings, that's insecure jealousy.
Ken Blackman [00:16:11]:
Okay. All right. Should I go on to the third kind?
Deborah [00:16:17]:
Yes, please.
Ken Blackman [00:16:18]:
Or do you have questions?
Deborah [00:16:19]:
No, I think I'm good so far, but let's bring in a third.
Ken Blackman [00:16:24]:
Great. So then there is possessive jealousy. And this one's kind of the hardest. It's the most misunderstood, and it's the hardest to Explain. So here's the metaphor that I give. Let's say you own a Maserati and it's your prized possession. Prized possession. And you're gonna give the key to this Maserati to your partner so they can go take it to go, I don't know, grocery shopping or go have, you know, go a day driving in the.
Ken Blackman [00:16:58]:
In, you know, on a scenic route. So you give them the keys, and then you get. You suddenly get scared that they're going to get into a crash, they're going to get a scratch, something bad is going to happen to this. This thing that's so valuable to you. Excuse me. So hopefully that can be edited out. So all of a sudden you're nervous and you decide to jump into the passenger seat and ride shotgun. And now you're like, giving them directions and telling them what to do and saying, watch out for that thing that's a half a mile away and put on the brakes and you're trying to grab the steering wheel so they don't run into whatever, right? Like you're being super controlling, right? So you can imagine what this feeling is like, right? Like they are in control and they've got the keys to your Maserati and you're worried about it.
Ken Blackman [00:17:56]:
So now imagine that it's not a Maserati, but what you're giving them is the keys to your heart. And so what's happening is you're afraid of how they're going to treat it. And so you're being. You end up being super controlling. And so what this can look like is you're. You get jealous early on in the relationship, like you just started dating, and all of a sudden you're like, talking about all the way, all the rules that they have to follow now that you guys are engaged and gonna get married, right? Like, it's like you're, you're, you're being. You're already being controlling, and it's. You haven't even gotten that far in the relationship, or you're in a relationship, but you're not giving the relationship any breathing room at all, right? You've built this moat with electric fencing around the relationship, right? So you're being super, super controlling.
Ken Blackman [00:18:53]:
So what's happening here? And the way I explain this is you want to own them because you want to be owned and you want to be possessed, but that scares you because you're afraid of how they're going to treat you. So you. Your desire to own is. Is driven by your desire to be owned, to give Them the keys to your heart. You want to give yourself to them and have them be in possession of you and you're terrified. So now you have to be in possession of them and be controlling of them and be their owner in order to manage and like be in, be in shotgun and be a backseat driver and tell them how to do it. So you're being super controlling. That's what this kind of jealousy is like.
Ken Blackman [00:19:48]:
And do you have a question?
Deborah [00:19:51]:
No, I, I, I, I'm, I'm following along. I'm, I'm curious what the, the, the, the antidote to this is.
Ken Blackman [00:19:59]:
Yeah. So usually what needs to happen here is that you like the, the relationship is being suffocated by your need to control and you haven't really given it a chance to kind of organically be what it is. And so what needs to happen is there needs to be like a little bit of a loose of the grip to see what this relationship wants to be, how it organically is going to grow and change. How does this person organically want to relate with you? How, how much do you guys want to see each other? How like what, what is this relationship going to look like if you're not like have your death grip on the steering wheel? Like let's, let's let it be what it's going to be and discover what it's going to be. That's what this relationship needs actually in order to be more secure, more, you know, like more fulfilling, more gratifying is to actually allow it to be organically what it is. There's certain things you can't make happen. Does that make sense?
Deborah [00:21:11]:
Yeah, yeah. And I love what you're talking about is this idea of allowing, you know, essentially allowing what's true between two people to develop versus like, oh, you match enough of my preferences that I am going to, we are going to be in a romantic relationship. Whether that's actually what the, the, the, the feelings between between us actually are.
Ken Blackman [00:21:38]:
Right.
Deborah [00:21:39]:
And I, I know for myself in my, in my past dating life, you know, as somebody who was interested in being sexual, my story in my growing up was all about like well that belongs in relationship. So you know, a beautiful, beautiful one night stand or weekend turned into a three year relationship because I couldn't allow the relationship to be what it really needed to be. I had this vision of how relationships happen and what, what's supposed to be in them.
Ken Blackman [00:22:15]:
Exactly, exactly.
Deborah [00:22:17]:
And I'm curious, like in your work, when you see jealousy, is there, is there one version of these three that shows up more than the other.
Ken Blackman [00:22:30]:
I mean, insecure jealousy I'd say is the most common. Envious jealousy. It's probably the next most common. People think they're, they're possessive, but often they're possessive. What it really is is they're insecure. But possessive jealousy does happen. You know, it's like they're, they're, they're taking it into the direction they think it needs to go rather than co creating with their partner. What this actually needs, wants to be.
Deborah [00:23:01]:
You know, it's interesting when I, when I think about these three different types of jealousy and take it sort of out of. I can see where I find like my, my, my number one version of jealousy would be the, the envious jealousy. But I don't see it so much in my partnership. I see it out in the world where it's like, you know, with my best friend or it's like, you know, a colleague who's got something really cool happening and I'm like, I want to do that, I'm going to play. So yes, I just find that's really interesting. And just again, would you be willing to go through the different antidotes again?
Ken Blackman [00:23:43]:
Yeah. So there's envious jealousy which you know is happening because you're angry, you're mad, something's being, you're being, you're getting ripped off. And the antidote is how can we make the relationship better? Then there's insecure jealousy and you know that that's what's happening because you have fear, anxiety, panic, you're afraid they're, they're, you're going to lose them. And, and the antidote there is to really take a look at your, your self worth and your self esteem. That's something that has to be done internally. The third is possessive jealousy and the emotional tone for this one is like sadness, sorrow, heartbreak, anguish, those kinds of flavors of feeling. And usually it manifests as like being over controlling or being or thinking, thinking too far ahead or like planning how the, or like being the dictator of how the relationship is going to go rather than actually being in collaborative co creation with your partner and letting it blossom into what it wants to be. And the antidote there is to really just give it some breathing room.
Deborah [00:25:03]:
Yeah. And that kind of brings me to. We were talking a little bit before we turned on the recording and you were talking about this new work that you're working on and this idea of should I stay or should I go? What is this relationship? And I'm really intrigued by that idea. So I'm curious, I'm curious what you have to say.
Ken Blackman [00:25:27]:
So this is something that kind of arose organically in my coaching because there was a series of clients that I had over a couple years. Like, I kept getting these clients who, they've been together for a few years. They're happy. Yeah, there's some problems, but they're, you know, they've been together for a while and they're thinking about maybe, maybe, you know, we want to get. Maybe we want to get married or maybe we. Are we life partners or what's going on here? And so often one of them will be like, you know what? You're, you're my person. Like, I've chosen you. You're my, you're my partner.
Ken Blackman [00:26:04]:
And the other one's like, I can't tell. I honestly can't tell. I don't know if the grass is greener somewhere else. I don't know if maybe one of us is going to want something different later. Like, if we, if this is. If we're going to be life partners for the rest of our lives, like, is it going to go downhill? Like, I just don't know, you know, But I'm equally afraid to leave, you know, Like, I don't want to. I don't want to leave something that could be the best relationship that I've ever had if I leave and then I never find someone like you. Do you know what I mean? Or, you know, I can't tell if the issues that we have are like, major red flag deal breakers or if they're totally resolvable in the normal thing.
Ken Blackman [00:26:48]:
Like, I just, I can't get to my clear yes. And I can't get to my clear no. Right. So that they're, they're at a crossroads. And the other partner is like, hey, if we're not going to be committed to each other, maybe we should break up so that I can actually find my life partner and start. Like, their lives are on hold, right? They have plans for how they want their life to unfold that are paused while they figure out if they're each other's, you know, the one or not. And, and so the other partner is like, hey, I don't want to stay in limbo forever. Like, I.
Ken Blackman [00:27:25]:
Let's decide. I. I understand that you're indecisive. It's. It's a little bit insulting and a little bit. It certainly hurts my feelings. But I love you and, you know, please, please make up your mind or cut me loose so I can go find My person, you know, so they're at this crossroads and I've worked with couples and like, literally my job is to help them get to clarity. Some of the couples that I work with end up getting super clear.
Ken Blackman [00:27:53]:
They have an amicable, amicable breakup. Like, yeah, let's bring this to a close right now because I don't have the feelings that I really wish that I, that I need to have in order to commit. Lots of couples have come to this place and worked out the stuff, gotten through all their resistance and gotten to a place where it's like, oh no, you're my person. Like, you're the person I want to be with for the rest of my life. So literally all I promise here is clarity and alignment so that whether it's together or whether it's separately, you're going to move forward into a future that you're, that you're excited about and have no regrets. So I'm designing, I've done this now enough times that I'm designing a program for it. And the program is going to be called no Regrets. Like, we are going to get to a place where you can make a decision without that paralyzing fear that you're going to regret your decision one way or another.
Ken Blackman [00:28:49]:
No, we're actually going to look at all the things and get you to a place of clarity. Like, oh, now I'm clear. We're, we are both clear how we want to move forward. That's, that's the, the gist of the program.
Deborah [00:29:02]:
I love that. And yeah. Can you say a little bit about, you know, the process that you noticed of, of what it takes to unwind or is that something. We have to wait.
Ken Blackman [00:29:15]:
You have to wait for it because it's going to be, it's going to be a 12 week process and it's based on all the things that have, that have come up in, in, in the work that I've been doing with clients already. But to turn it to go from like, like one on one really customized work where, where I'm working with one particular couple to, to something that's a little bit more like, we're going to go through a process where we're actually going to cover all the bases of what's going on. What are your possible objectives? Everything from very left brained, logical. Like we're going to talk about pluses and minuses. We're going to create a little spreadsheet that shows you, here's how you prioritize these. We're going to go very left brain and let's talk about what your plan B is. Let's play out. Let's imagine that you break up.
Ken Blackman [00:30:11]:
Well, let's look at that. And so you can get a felt sense of what that's like all the way to the other place where we're talking about feelings. And you can actually, I. Help them really surface what they're actually feeling, you know, like, is it. Is it just fear of. Of commitment? You know, fear of, like, oh, is this a forever thing? And the other thing that we're going to do is like, here's what's possible for your relationship. Like, a lot of couples, most people don't know what's possible. Like, how good a relationship can be.
Ken Blackman [00:30:48]:
Do you know what I mean? Like, relationships. That's. Most of the work I've been doing for the last two decades is, no, no, this relationship could be 10 times better than even what you guys. Like, you came to me with problems. We can solve those problems. But. But this is really what's possible in relationship. Does that sound good to you? And they're like, yeah, I want that.
Ken Blackman [00:31:09]:
And then I'm like, okay, this is. These are the changes that you need to make in order to get to that. Then you can actually have something that's amazing. So we're not going to solve those problems, but they're going to walk away with an idea of what they need to do to create a fantastic relationship, if that's what they want. And what would be required, like, what would be required from each of them to have that fantastic relationship if that's what they want. So they're going to get very, very clear about the best that this could be and what would it take to get there? And then they. And then what's the process, the internal process to really get to clarity of deciding whether that's what you want or not. So that's.
Ken Blackman [00:31:49]:
That's about as much as I can say without, like, you know, I get it.
Deborah [00:31:54]:
I get it. Thank you. And that brings me to another question. One of the things I've heard you talk about often is the idea that, you know, we're. A lot of what we're told about relationships is that it's hard work and that it's always going to be hard work. And I. That is not your feeling, from what I understand.
Ken Blackman [00:32:16]:
Not at all. And I'm so glad you're bringing this up because I love talking about this. So one day Anna and I were talking and I was like, why does it seem. Why does it never feel like this Relationship is hard work. And we thought about it was like, we do all the things people mean when they say it's hard work. Like, we have difficult conversations. We. We say uncomfortable things.
Ken Blackman [00:32:41]:
We. We call each other out, like, hey, you know. Or we. We admit uncomfortable things about ourselves. Like, we. We. We cop to stuff. You know, we say, you know, like, we.
Ken Blackman [00:32:52]:
We. We show our vulnerable side and our. Our ugly side. We have disagreements, sometimes passionate disagreements. So we do all the things that people talk about when they say hard work, but we don't experience it that way. I have to pause for a second.
Deborah [00:33:20]:
You need to get some water.
Ken Blackman [00:33:25]:
I'm recovering from COVID so. Yeah. Yeah. Anyway, so then we were talking about. And we were like, why is it that some couples experience this is very hard work and difficult and why. And other couples don't. And so then a little while later, I heard someone say something really simple that made a lot of sense. They said, we're in relationship to get our needs met.
Ken Blackman [00:34:25]:
And I thought, we're in our relationship to get our needs met. And I thought, I don't believe that. That's not how I think. It's not how I approach relationships. It's not what I teach, not what I coach. It's not how I approach my relationship. And what I realized was there's intrinsic. Intrinsic motivation and extrinsic motivation.
Ken Blackman [00:34:53]:
So I'll define these in. Extrinsic motivation is I'm doing this to get some positive reward or I'm doing it to avoid some negative conduct consequence. Go to work to get a paycheck. Right. Intrinsic motivation is I do it because I enjoy it. I do it for its own. It's its own reward. And so the uncomfortable truth is that some people love the perks of relationship, but they don't actually like doing relationship.
Ken Blackman [00:35:29]:
Right. It's an. They're. They're doing it extra. It's an extrinsic motivation. They do it. And that's what it means when you say I'm doing it to get my needs met. I.
Ken Blackman [00:35:41]:
I'm doing these things I don't like doing to get these. This to this payoff. That's so those. That's extrinsic motivation. And that's what turns it into work. Right. So you're. So either either relationship is a passion project, it's something you love doing, or it's something where you put up.
Ken Blackman [00:36:06]:
You, like you do. You go through the motions, and you do the things you need to do to get the thing that you want, whether it's you know, sex or, you know, security or, you know, praise, you know, someone who will, who will make you feel valuable or whatever your, whatever your quote unquote needs are that you're trying to get met. Right? So these are two very different ways to experience relationship. And I, I love Anna like, I love her to death, but I love doing relationship. Do you know what I mean? Like, there's things that I, you know, things that we argue about or, you know, things I quote unquote like about her or don't like about her. But I put that in quotes because the truth is, underneath all that, I enjoy every single fucking minute of it. I just love. I love her, but I love the process of doing relationship.
Ken Blackman [00:37:02]:
And so you can approach it that way and it becomes a completely different experience. There's nothing about this that's work. It's all, it's all, all of it is just my jam. You know what I mean?
Deborah [00:37:15]:
Yeah, I heard you say that. And I started getting really curious about my own relationship. And certainly it's been long enough that there have been times when it's been both intrinsic and extrinsic and, you know, certainly moments where there's tolerating and then there's been, you know, just revel again. And fortunately, the last few years have been, you know, we've, we, we have been reveling and it's been this, this incredible curiosity of how can, you know, how good can it get?
Ken Blackman [00:37:50]:
And that's a good question to be asking.
Deborah [00:37:53]:
And, and, and also this idea of like, well, what if? We do it just a little bit differently, like, what if? And so that's been kind of the game we've been playing is sort of the what if? And, and it's really shifted things around. And when I heard you talking about, like. Because I, you know, I think the older I get and you know, the more work I've done to like, as you said, self source and figure out what needs I can meet on my own. And you know, what, what desires, I would say they're not need so much as desires. Like, I desire to be held and cuddled and you know, do I need it? I mean, it certainly makes life better, but I think that's more in the desire category. But it just really struck me of like, oh, that is such a great distinction there. And I love the idea of really enjoying the process or the experience of relationship because I think, you know, when it's thought of as that, like, it's when the problems, the problem solving in quotes, you know, Becomes more fun. It becomes more interesting when it's like, this is the process of relationship versus, you know, these being at odds with each other or.
Deborah [00:39:18]:
Or having every fight be the make.
Ken Blackman [00:39:21]:
Or break of the relationship or transactionality, right? Which is, I'm. I'm gonna do these things for you so that you will do these things for me, or I'm gonna hold out my love from you to punish you for the things that I've been wanting from you that you're not getting from me. Or like, all these ways in which it becomes just a. A very transactional thing rather than two people who fundamentally love each other, fundamentally want each other to be happy, fundamentally, like, have each other's backs, you know, and like. Like, it's a. It's a. It's a very different experience when you're giving to get. Now, mind you, like, this was me.
Ken Blackman [00:40:10]:
This was me for my young adult life when, you know, it's like I was trying to figure out what I needed to. I was. I was. I was a. I was a. I had nice guy syndrome. So I would. I was generous manipulatively trying to create covert contracts where then they would give me what I wanted.
Ken Blackman [00:40:31]:
I often. I. That doesn't work very well, I will tell you. It's not very effective. But you can get into a relationship where you think of your love and all that, all the things that you have to offer as commodities to bestow or withhold at, to figure out what your exchange rate is for, what it is that you want to be getting from your partner, and it becomes. It's just a diff. It's a different flavor. I'll just say that it's a different.
Ken Blackman [00:40:59]:
It's a very different flavor of relationship than what. Than what I want to have with my partner.
Deborah [00:41:05]:
Absolutely. And, you know, as you're saying that I'm realizing or I'm thinking that like, you know, one of the things that people socialized as women, often the story we get around sex is. It is a commodity. It is traded. It is to be held back when we're not getting our way. It's, you know, to be bestowed as a reward. You know, when our partner has. The thing that popped in my head was, been a good boy.
Deborah [00:41:33]:
Which is just, you know, it's. It's such an unfortunate way to think of it because, you know, sex is such a beautiful part of life in general and can really be a really bonding and wonderful experience in relationship. And, you know, one of the things I'd love you to talk about if you would be so kind. Is somatic pleasure.
Ken Blackman [00:42:01]:
Yeah. Versus direct pleasure. Yeah. So this is a perfect tie in. Right. Because I don't. I. There are a lot of kind of man, woman, or masculine, feminine dichotomies that I've kind of thrown out the window.
Ken Blackman [00:42:19]:
Like most of it doesn't. Like it may be true, it may not be true. It doesn't matter if it's true or not. Like, if it's just, like, it's not how. It's not how I. How I understand relationships. Right. I do.
Ken Blackman [00:42:33]:
I do mostly work with this hetero, you know, couples who are heteronormative in some ways and not in other ways. And it's just not. It's not an issue. Right. But there is a pattern that I've noticed. And so I'm gonna make. I'm gonna go against what I normally do and make this generalization that it just seems to fit, which is that for reasons. I'll explain in a minute.
Ken Blackman [00:42:58]:
I'll make the statement first and then I'll say what I. Why I think this is true. So it seems that men tend to have easy access to somatic pleasure, bodily pleasure, direct pleasure, and what we as men hunger for, the missing ingredient, this thing that we're hunger for is empathetic pleasure, which is co. Experiencing with another human being. Like. Like my partner's pleasure. Being pleasured by my partner's pleasure. Right.
Ken Blackman [00:43:27]:
And. And from what I've heard from women and, and what they, you know, from the work that I've done with them. And, And I'm always willing to be, like, I'm always willing to be wrong when I make any kind of statement about how women are. Right. Like, like I'm willing to throw it out, but, but I. But to make the generalization that women are kind of the opposite, where they, It's e. What's. What comes easy to them is the empathetic kind of like.
Ken Blackman [00:43:53]:
Like the empathetic pleasure, especially in the bedroom, where a lot of women may end up producing more pleasurable sensation in their partner's body than what they're feeling in their own body. Right. Which is what. Which ties into what you were talking about before and what they hunger for. What they get shortchanged on in that situation is the direct bodily pleasure. And so when I set things up where he is learning how to pleasure her by the standards of her own body, what actually feels good to her body, where she's getting the direct pleasure, he's having an opportunity to get the separate nutrient, separate from his genitals, this separate nutrient of enjoying her pleasure like this, the empathetic pleasure. All of a sudden he's getting something he didn't realize that he was hungry for and she's getting something she didn't think she would ever have access to. And so all of a sudden things are working.
Ken Blackman [00:44:52]:
Like that's often the single solution to, to so many issues with, with heterosexual couples is, is the sex they're having is so much better for him than it is for her. All we have to do is balance that out. And then all of a sudden he's getting the thing that he actually wanted the whole time, and so is she. So. Yeah, and I, if you want I can explain, I can give some, some like background as to how I came to.
Deborah [00:45:18]:
Because I, I was really fascinated the first time I heard you say this.
Ken Blackman [00:45:23]:
Yeah, so, so I, I want this. So here's one example that I give and you've heard me talk about this before, but we can, we can talk about how when, when someone turns to technology as kind of a substitute or a stand in for a partner. So men turn to, Men tend to spend money on porn. Women tend to spend money on a vibrator. Men, if men do, if men spend money on toys, it's like they'll get, you know, they have this doll that you can get. And so in the sex industry it's interesting because they say women buy toys that stimulate like a vibrator. Men buy toys that simulate like a person or men spend money on a sex worker. So let's talk about what, what this difference, what we can learn from this dis.
Ken Blackman [00:46:17]:
So what does it mean? What's the commonality between porn dolls, a sex worker, you know, these things? Well, what, what men are hungry for is another person to co experience this with. Right. So if it was just my machinery is not that hard to operate. Oh my God, like if it was just about the orgasm, I could do that myself. I wouldn't need a partner. And so, you know, like that's, that's an option that's available to me all the time. But what's missing is another person to experience it with. So mental will.
Ken Blackman [00:46:50]:
And women too. Like women certainly women watch porn. Absolutely, women watch porn. But, but for men in particular because they are the prime, they're the big spenders when it comes to the porn industry. Like the money is coming from the men and so what they're doing is they're, they would even watch other people have an experience and get the pleasure from watching them have this experience. So, so this is what I'm talking about with the empathetic enjoyment being the missing in the like the, the nutrient that they're hungry for. And, and that's what makes the direct pleasure actually like, like spark. And women are the opposite.
Ken Blackman [00:47:31]:
Like women don't have a problem getting, getting a partner if a partner that was always is needed. They, they, they can, they can, they can manifest a partner pretty easily. But what gets shortchanged is the direct somatic pleasure. Like is this person. There's this study, I love this study. So you know the orgasm gap, right? I'm jumping around a little bit, but this is worth it. The orgasm gap. So how the, the percentage of women, or let's say clitoris havers in this case, okay, who, who had an, or who had an orgasm in their last sexual encounter versus the number of penis havers who had an orgasm in their last.
Ken Blackman [00:48:19]:
In their last. Their last encounter. Right? And there's if for years and years and years and years and years it's been very clear that there's a huge gap. Men have way more orgasms than women do. But then they broke it down by, they broke it down by orientation. So women, so straight men are. Have the most then gay and les, gay, gay and bi men, then lesbian women. Then there's a huge drop off of 20, 20 percentile.
Ken Blackman [00:49:08]:
Then there's bi and, and lesbian, I mean bi and straight women. So what we're seeing is there's this huge gap. The, this orgasm gap is between women who have sex with men are the ones who are getting shortchanged here. Right? And so this study, what, where, what this study was looking at was what are the, what are the, the factors that would, that would have women want to have sex more often? And it was basically two things. That they're not going to get slut shamed and that the sex is actually going to be good. It's going to be somatically pleasurable for them. So so obviously the, the, the physical pleasure, the biggest thing, the biggest change that I, that, that, that, that I can make, you know, with a couple is whether she's having, whether her sex is for him. Something like you said before, something that is a, is a bargaining chip that she gives to him or takes away from him to make the switch from that whole model to the sex is for her.
Ken Blackman [00:50:20]:
It's for her pleasure. It's actually her, her pussy is, is strictly and only for her own pleasure and he will derive whatever pleasure there is to be had from her being fully in her own pleasure. For. For, you know, CIS hetero couples, that's the. That's usually the single biggest change I can make for them.
Deborah [00:50:40]:
And I'm curious, like, when you introduce this to a couple, are they like, oh, that's awesome, or are they resistant? Or what do you usually find the reaction to be?
Ken Blackman [00:50:54]:
I mean, keep in mind that I'm working with pretty. I'm often working with pretty conventional couples, so they're steeped in, you know, heteronormative beliefs. And so usually he struggles because basically what I'm saying to him is, you. You're not aware of how spoiled you've been, and you're not aware of how much better the sex has been for you than it is for her. And you're not aware that you're going to actually have to put maybe 10 times the amount of attention on her pleasure than what you've been doing. But I can tell you that once you do that, it's going to be so worth it because of being. Being connected with a woman who's actually having that much pleasure, who's actually enjoying it for real. Not maybe, I don't know, the show that she's been, you know, putting on, you know, like, maybe she's been.
Ken Blackman [00:52:00]:
Been exaggerating a little bit, you know, so. So it's a. It's a. It's a sting to his ego, but hopefully I can get him interested enough that. That he. Once. Once he's actually pleasuring her and he realizes how much nutrient there is for him in that, all of a sudden he's. He's super interested in, like, he.
Ken Blackman [00:52:19]:
He wants to learn everything he can about what. What feels good to her. And to be honest, it can be equally confronting for her because I. I often will set up. This has happened so many times. I set up a couple up so that he's going to pleasure her.
Deborah [00:52:35]:
Mm.
Ken Blackman [00:52:37]:
She doesn't have to do anything. There isn't going to be anything. She owes him. There's not going to be, like, a price tag at the end of it. He's going to pleasure her. And that's it. That's the whole. That's the entire deal.
Ken Blackman [00:52:48]:
All she has to do is lie back, enjoy it, relax, give him some instructions, tell him. Tell him anything that he needs to, like, give him adjustments so that he. He can actually get in the ballpark of something that actually appeals good to you. And. And women. And women are super excited about this. They go home, they come back the next week, and they're like, it Was so confronting. Oh, my God, I couldn't do it.
Ken Blackman [00:53:12]:
I was so self conscious. Like, am I breathing right? Am I, should I be writhing to, like, am I moan? Should I moan? Like, is what I'm doing pleasurable for him? And I'm like, we haven't even gotten there yet. Like, that switch from being so steeped in it. Doing it for the partner rather than doing it for her own pleasure. Which is what you were talking about earlier.
Deborah [00:53:39]:
Yeah. And you know, that brings me to hearing you say that I have this question because this, this often comes up where the couples I'm working with, like, she is pulling so far back, like, there's no touching, there's no kissing, there's no anything because she's afraid. Or at least this is the story that comes out is that it's going to escalate to sex. And I'm curious what you would say about that.
Ken Blackman [00:54:06]:
Yeah, okay. I have some things to say about that.
Deborah [00:54:12]:
I'm imagining you do.
Ken Blackman [00:54:14]:
So another thing that can happen is that, I mean, mind you, they wouldn't be together if he weren't attentive. He knows how to be attentive. He absolutely knows how to be attentive. But it can happen pretty often that his capacity to be attentive flies out the window as soon as his penis is involved. So what happens is he's attentive, attentive, attentive, attentive, attentive, attentive, attentive until it starts feeling really good to him and then he's flooded and all he can think about is his own pleasure. He just gets overwhelmed with his own pleasure. And his capacity to have his attention on her flies out the window. And so what I say is, there's a couple things I say.
Ken Blackman [00:55:05]:
First of all, it would be good for him to learn how to stay connected to her experience in the same way he already knows how to do it. He already knows how to do this. He needs to learn how to do this while they're having penetrative intercourse. He needs to learn how to do this while he also is in the throes of his own pleasure. He needs to actually not take his attention, like, not turn his attention off of her and go inward because then all he's doing is kind of masturbating on her. Right? So that's the first thing. The second thing is, like, her, her pussy is only to be used for things that feel good to her. There is like, I, I made this rule with my wife when we got together is for we are only Going to do things that feel good to your body.
Ken Blackman [00:55:58]:
I don't care what, like, I don't care what that means. If something isn't feeling good to you, we stop. And I, I meant it. I was like, like, and I say this to couples like, I don't care if he's 10 strokes away from climaxing. If it doesn't feel good to you, you stop. And so all of a sudden we are prioritizing, like, to, to, to compensate for the. How far in this direction it's gone. We're going to compensate and we're going to say no.
Ken Blackman [00:56:29]:
Her enjoyment is going to be the deciding factor for everything that happens. If, if her pussy wants three minutes of, of gentle kissing and then she's done, then that's what happens. If, you know, if, if she wants penetrative intercourse and then in the middle of it, she feels complete, then you stop. If she wants him to slow down, you stop. So all of a sudden her body is learning that this is a safe. There isn't going to be any escalation beyond what's good to her ever, ever, ever, ever. It's safe. It's safe for her pleasure, to her pleasure body to start to come out and, oh, this feels good.
Ken Blackman [00:57:13]:
It's pretty consistent that, that this being in bed and being naked and having genital contact is a pleasurable experience. All of a sudden she wants a lot of it. She wants, she wants a lot of that. Like her, it becomes, it becomes pleasurable. So pleasurable to her that, that her, her capacity to experience enjoyment and be in that, in that situation grows and, and expands. And all of a sudden he's getting everything he wanted all along. That makes sense.
Deborah [00:57:45]:
It does, it does. And as you're saying that, you know, it goes back to that confrontational piece where it's like, you know, all of those thought I, I mean, I'm just listening to you and all those thoughts are coming up of like, you know, well, what if I. What, what if it. What? You know, what if I don't look good? What if. What about his pleasure? You know, like, I mean, just listening, I'm spitting out. So I just want to say this is not, you know, this is a, not an easy process, but, you know, it's one of those ways that it can get that much better. Right?
Ken Blackman [00:58:24]:
Yes. That's, that's what, that's the thing that I have to say to both of them is the reason you're doing this is because the sex you could be having is so much better than the Sex you're having, like it's going to, doing this is going to be worth it to you because then you're having connected sex where you're co. Experiencing together. Do you know, oh, I'll give your, I'll give your, your readers a little heads, heads up of something that's coming down the pike is I'm writing an article, I'm writing not an article, I'm writing a book actually on simultaneous orgasm. And the, the, the gist of the book is going to be how do you not, how do you like control your body to, you know, how do you manage your, your body or control your body or, you know, any of those things? None of that. It's. How do two people get into synchrony with each other to such a degree and have such a shared experience? And it's so, they're so synced up and, and the experience they're co experiencing each other to such a degree that they rise and fall together. It's just organically.
Ken Blackman [00:59:32]:
The arc of it happens organically because that's how connected to each other they are. That's my way of having simultaneous orgasm. And it's, I think there's no, there's no like bodily control or anything. No, we're just having this having, we're, it happens at the same time because we're having the same experience together. So.
Deborah [00:59:54]:
Well, that is certainly something to look forward to and I look forward to talking to you more about that. So I just want to, in a minute I'm going to ask you, like, if there's one thing. I know we've talked about so much great stuff, but if there's one thing that you want people to get out of our conversation, you know, what might that be? But I just want to take a moment and let people know how they can support the better sex podcast. Because you know, sex is a complex subject and it can really, as we're talking about, make or break a relationship. And unfortunately, most of us don't grow up in environments where talking about sex is welcome. And that's why I offer the Sexual Mastery Breakthrough session. It's a personalized one on one experience so that you can have more satisfying sex life. Because let's face it, a podcast, even as good as this one, is not enough.
Deborah [01:00:51]:
You need to have practice and you need to have tools and support and so you can learn more about this in the show notes because let's face it, life is too short for bad sex. And now that I've given you a moment to think about it. What do you want people to walk away from our conversation with, you know.
Ken Blackman [01:01:13]:
I'd love for them to give some thought to this thing, this kind of novel idea I put out that, you know, meant that, that men have easy access to direct pleasure and hunger for empathetic pleasure and women have easy access to empathetic pleasure and, and get shortchanged. And what, what actually is, is the next place of nourishment for them is direct bodily pleasure.
Deborah [01:01:39]:
Love that. And of course it brings up so many more questions, but I am going to pause here and say thank you so much, Ken. I'm looking forward to your upcoming course and to your book and where do people find you?
Ken Blackman [01:01:57]:
Yeah, you can find me@kenblackman.com or I'm going to also give you a link to my blog so you can read more of. Actually, I have a lot of material on all the stuff we talked about today on, on my blog. So, you know, you can go into more detail there.
Deborah [01:02:14]:
Beautiful. So please check out the the show notes and ken blackman.com and please, if any of this resonates with you, if you've heard something and you know that your best friend would totally benefit, please share this podcast with them. And again, like subscribe, leave a comment. It helps us get really good information out into the world. And thank you so much for listening.